Loft Marketing Hype??
- Staff
- #78
This is why this argument gets annoying to me: I get the sense that people often use the 'strong loft' card as a way to minimize the fact the others have seen distance gains from buying new irons. You see all the time on Facebook. A person tells TM or Cally that they saw a 10 yard increase in distance when they bought new irons and somebody chimes in that it's only because of the lofts as if they are holding some huge secret in their pocket.
If one set's 6 iron travels as far as another's 4 or 5 iron, but is easier to hit, there is no negative that I could possibly envision. Again, it's accesible distance, which is a great thing for most amatuer golfers. It's fine if a person is opposed to stronger lofts/distance clubs out of a traditionalist mind-set. But, I would also think that person would play a smaller/wooden driver, no hybrids, and a balata ball if that is their concern. Tradition is fine, but I hate to see it used as a way to minimize other people's gains. I can't think of a true negative with stronger lofted clubs aside from possible gapping issues. If gapping is an issue, there is a HUGE selection of clubs and wedges out there to help with it. The Nike TW blades have a 48° PW, which isn't far from the set that posted earlier. Also, the specifications for all clubs are available to the consumer that cares.
If one set's 6 iron travels as far as another's 4 or 5 iron, but is easier to hit, there is no negative that I could possibly envision. Again, it's accesible distance, which is a great thing for most amatuer golfers. It's fine if a person is opposed to stronger lofts/distance clubs out of a traditionalist mind-set. But, I would also think that person would play a smaller/wooden driver, no hybrids, and a balata ball if that is their concern. Tradition is fine, but I hate to see it used as a way to minimize other people's gains. I can't think of a true negative with stronger lofted clubs aside from possible gapping issues. If gapping is an issue, there is a HUGE selection of clubs and wedges out there to help with it. The Nike TW blades have a 48° PW, which isn't far from the set that posted earlier. Also, the specifications for all clubs are available to the consumer that cares.
c_ault
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- Thread starter
- #79
You're right I don't know you and you don't know me. I'm not the one that brought in the traditionalist vs modernist argument and I'm not the one that said "only people that seem to get upset about this are the ones playing weaker lofts" "Because someone is saying they are hitting it further by them with the same iron? They are always the ones to quickly point out that it is stronger lofted."
This is the bias I am talking about and that don't believe is of any help.
I think I asked a valid question, with valid reasons behind the question with valid information at my fingertips. Maybe I am wrong to get annoyed that you lumped me into a group of people I don't care for. I think that when I said that I wondered if I should be annoyed at the traditionlist comment and then you come back with the only people who care about loft are basically people that are out there to put others down to build themselves up, yes it annoyed me, and no, I don't believe that is helpful in this thread.
Oh, I have read many of the reviews here, not only in the forum but on the main site (if you want to separate them) including the Di9 irons. Do I find them interesting and well written with good information, yes. Does that really have anything to do with this???
- Admin
- #80
I think reviews (someones overall equipment thoughts) has everything to do with this based on the fact based on what you said about my opinions. Just as much so as bringing what Maltby and Wishon have to say on a related topic.
You made a post and I responded with the perception that revolves around the posts on THP. Perhaps having a better understanding of what I am speaking about overall in regards to the reality of posts on this forum rather than getting feathers ruffled would have helped out a little bit. Having an opinion to one side of an argument does NOT always mean bias. It means one has an opinion, just as you have one. Opinions open up discussion and being openminded about a discussion brings education and change. NOT BIAS!
Yes I said "only people", but if you read the first few words of that same sentence it says "To Me". And in regards to the bolded part. If you are going to summarize my posts, please at least try to see it from where the post is coming from before summarizing. Not everybody is trying to attack. While that might be the case on other sites, here at THP, it is not like that.
- Staff
- #81
To answer your original question c: No, I absolutely do not think that we need to have another rule out there standardizing lofts. I think rules often stifle advancements and I don't think that is what the game of golf needs at this point. What golf needs is to be more accessible to people so more people play it.
I looked at the Di11's recently as they were an iron I was very interested in. I noticed that they gap at the top end would be pretty big if I were to go with them, so I decided that they really weren't for me. The power is always in the hands of the consumer, especially when information is available to them.
I looked at the Di11's recently as they were an iron I was very interested in. I noticed that they gap at the top end would be pretty big if I were to go with them, so I decided that they really weren't for me. The power is always in the hands of the consumer, especially when information is available to them.
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TC
Keg Thrower
i guess i'm just confused more than anything at this point. it seems as though your OP points out how this wishon fella has noticed that lofts in irons have gotten stronger over the years. there's been plenty of posts in here that have added as to why that may be the case. i think a lot of it has to do w/the fact that courses are getting longer and longer and distance is now the premium when it comes to standards. forum member hawk and i have both elaborated on why we believe it's not really a big deal and how it can be far more beneficial to the average amateur golfer.
i don't think you've been "lumped" into a particular group of people but seeing as how we've elaborated on our thoughts concerning stronger lofts, you've not even mentioned your thoughts or views based on our assesments. i don't even know what's going on in this thread right now to tell you the truth.
other posts have alluded to the fact that stronger lofted irons have created gaps in the bottom of their bags and i think that there's enough product on the market place right now to fill those gaps. i also think that one's approach to the game, ie course management, can also fill those gaps.
point is, i feel more comfortable with a "scoring" iron in my hand from further distances out. there's less likely a chance for me to miss the green or to not execute a shot with those clubs so i'm all for it.
again, no one is jumping on your back and no one is being hostile towards you. i'm just trying to discuss the benefits i see from stronger lofted irons. do they have any merit to you? i have no idea at this point.
The manufacturers can only cram so much technology in the heads so they have to find other ways to tweak their equipment; jacking the lofts is one way to do that. There is nothing wrong with that, and if the golfer feels he is hitting his 7-iron ten yards further (even through he isn't) where's the harm? I posted this earlier, but I'll post it again. There is almost a two club difference between the two irons sets. Which 7-iron do you think will go further?
1957 Wilson Staff DynaPower Irons
2–21º
3–24º
4–27º
5–31º
6–35º
7–39º
8–43º
9–47º
PW–51º
2010 TaylorMade Burner 2.0
2–n/a
3–19º
4–21º
5–24º
6–27º
7–31º
8–35º
9–40º
PW–45º
1957 Wilson Staff DynaPower Irons
2–21º
3–24º
4–27º
5–31º
6–35º
7–39º
8–43º
9–47º
PW–51º
2010 TaylorMade Burner 2.0
2–n/a
3–19º
4–21º
5–24º
6–27º
7–31º
8–35º
9–40º
PW–45º
- Admin
- #84
Of course he is. Whether the lofts are jacked or not, the 7 iron is the 7 iron when its pulled out of the bag. When someone pulls out a stronger lofted 7 iron do you think they really say "Well this is really a 6 iron?" Of course not, they reach for their 7 iron, the one that is labeled 7 iron, and hit the 7 iron. Then they put that same 7 iron back in the bag.
TC
Keg Thrower
better yet, why are we comparing irons from 2010 to irons from 1957. why aren't we comparing the balls, the shafts, the shoes, the golf bags, gps' (oops), and anything else that we have available today? they didn't have launch monitors then either, do you think that fittings were readily available? i'm sure people of color and women were discouraged from golfing then as well, how about that?
the point is, the game evolves, and most of us evolve with it, b/c we're educated. if you don't want to play stronger lofted clubs, fine, but the point of the thread to me is how stronger lofted irons, and the marketing hype behind them, deceive most golfers out there today. i don't believe that it does. i think most people, myself included, is much more inclined pulling my 7 iron and hitting it further than i did 2-5 years ago.
the point is, the game evolves, and most of us evolve with it, b/c we're educated. if you don't want to play stronger lofted clubs, fine, but the point of the thread to me is how stronger lofted irons, and the marketing hype behind them, deceive most golfers out there today. i don't believe that it does. i think most people, myself included, is much more inclined pulling my 7 iron and hitting it further than i did 2-5 years ago.
One-T
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I agree with you guys here, but I think the point is...if I normally hit my 7 iron 175, I will hit my 2.0 7 iron 185 and so I think the point the OP was trying to make is that it can be confusing to some and that he would like to see the lofts on the club and not the numbered iron. he just said it in a more drawn out way. I could be wrong here. just my .02
It's just a number on the bottom of the club. One could go around in circles arguing the differences between the number of the iron versus the loft. But today's 7-iron was yesterday's 5-iron? That's quite a leap. If I hit a 31º 5-iron the same distance you hit a 31º 7-iron you can't honestly say you hit two clubs less than I did. The number on the sole of the club just becomes a random number whereas the loft of the club is the "true" number.
TC
Keg Thrower
i see your point as i do his, and like i said back on page 1 or wherever, personally, i prefer the number on the sole and not the loft. it's purely personal.
One-T
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- Admin
- #90
What happens when the person with the strong lofts hits a 3 iron or 4 iron? What do you hit then to make it equal? Since there is no difference in the analogies you are using.
TC
Keg Thrower
i can honestly say that i've never played golf where who was hitting what to a certain distance ever really mattered. i can honestly also say that i've never played golf with anyone with irons from 1957. i won't worry about a conversation that will never take place.
johnnymo
New member
I think that we are getting stuck here. Maybe if we get some definitions agreed upon we can better debate the subject.
May I suggest that we define what makes a 7 iron a 7 iron? It seems to me that 7 iron is a social construct or a label, like the concept of days of a week. If we can move towards examining the topic based on quantitative data instead of qualitative data I think we could actually find some concensus.
I do not mean to completely discount the psychological aspect though as I think TC and others have mentioned in this thread that some people feel more comfortable with certain clubs/scoring clubs. I just believe if we look at the meat and potatoes of the topic though that we can then apply some of that to the more subjective ideas regarding the perception of club.
john
ps
I had a Dan Quayle moment and had to google the word potatoes
May I suggest that we define what makes a 7 iron a 7 iron? It seems to me that 7 iron is a social construct or a label, like the concept of days of a week. If we can move towards examining the topic based on quantitative data instead of qualitative data I think we could actually find some concensus.
I do not mean to completely discount the psychological aspect though as I think TC and others have mentioned in this thread that some people feel more comfortable with certain clubs/scoring clubs. I just believe if we look at the meat and potatoes of the topic though that we can then apply some of that to the more subjective ideas regarding the perception of club.
john
ps
I had a Dan Quayle moment and had to google the word potatoes
- Staff
- #93
I do want to revisit one of the points the OP made that I agree with. I went back to the W/S site today and they no longer have the lofts available to view for the Di11's. They recently changed their site, so I assume that changed when it changed. I went to the Euro site, which is still the old format and they still have the specs available there. I definitely DO think that this information should be available to the consumer so he/she can figure out what to do with any potential gaps.
I still say it doesn't matter one way or the other. A 31º 5-iron is the same as 31º 7-iron. 31º is 31º no matter the number is on the sole of the club.
- Admin
- #96
So in that aspect its not always the same thing right? Im just trying to understand. I understand what you said earlier that if someone hits the strong lofted 7 iron, you can usually hit the 6 iron the same distance so there is no difference. But when someone hits the 3 iron, you have to go to woods, so there is an inherent difference.
As I said before, it seems as though that it should not make a single bit of difference to anybody. Like some others, I dont pay any attention to lofts once I am out on the actual course. I pick up a 9 iron and dont think well this is really an 8 iron. Because you know what? its not. Its a 9 iron.
Should I look at my 3 wood and think its a driver because its the same size as it was back in 1954? or should I question whether or not its really fair to compare distances because I play a 10 degree driver and my playing partner plays a 8.5?
And of course as mentioned before that the OP skipped past was playable loft and how that relates to this discussion. Offset is not the same in clubs from 1682 as it is today and certainly not the same in all irons. This changes the playable loft and of course moves things closer together.
- Admin
- #97
But while that is the case for you, its not for everybody. Confidence comes in at different levels for different players. Some guys have a different swing thought hitting a 7 iron and hitting a 5 iron.
There is a difference between a 3-iron and a wood, but it doesn't matter to me. Honestly, all I care about is what I score on the hole, as I strongly pointed out a number of posts back. The eagle I got the other day I hit a 7-wood that I hit high, far and landed soft.
I'll grant you that, and whatever works to improve a golfer's game he should avail himself to it. I see it a bit differently. Again, for me, it's all about scoring...if it's with a 5-iron instead of a 7-iron or vice versa it makes no difference to me.
- Admin
- #99
Do you hit your 5 iron as good as your 7 iron?