Loft Marketing Hype??

[Hawk]

I'm always surprised that this gets so many people upset. It's not like it's a secret or anything new. You can find the specs of any current iron pretty quickly. Find out how far you hit each one and go from there. If you don't like strong lofts, get something else. Pretty simple fix imo.

 

[mrslate63]

I have a little different take on this. I am generally the shortest hitter in the group of 8 -10 guys I play with. Most of them are 2 clubs longer than me in irons, one is 4!!! I hit my 7 iron 150 yards. They all hit 9 irons that distance. The guy that is 4, hits his PW 155 yards.

With that said, I'm all for irons going longer. Even longer than these new ones. Let my friends stay with their old clubs and I'll take the new ones. I yearn for the day I can hit a 9 iron, regardless of actual loft, 150 yards! The way I look at it is as the clubs progress in the set, they get shorter and easier to hit. So, the shorter the club the more accurate I am. Give me that 150 yd 9 iron, puh-leeeze!!!

Better yet, give me that 7 iron I can hit 170 yards, then I won't have to carry so many hybrids and can add more wedges!!! Just imagine Driver, 3 and 5 wood, 5 - Gap, 55, 60, 65, and putter! I'm all in!!!

 

[jnug]

I'm always surprised that this gets so many people upset. It's not like it's a secret or anything new. You can find the specs of any current iron pretty quickly. Find out how far you hit each one and go from there. If you don't like strong lofts, get something else. Pretty simple fix imo.

I don't know Hawk. I think in some cases people have in the back of their heads how many times there would be claims that newer clubs really were not that much longer or better but we were all being "fooled" by the changing lofts. Maybe that plays into it. We still hear that a good deal about drivers and shaft lengths don't we? The truth is these new clubs coming out now are just amazing. I have only gotten to hit some of them under less than optimal conditions but there just does not appear to be any downside to many of the newer clubs. I don't know what these guys are going to do for an encore. I would guess we will continue to see better and better shafts used right out of the box for one thing.

 

[johnnymo]

For fun I went to my local range tonight and grabbed a bunch of demo Mizunos to experiment with. I snagged a MP-63 a MP-53 and a JPX-800Pro. I was going to grab a JPX-800 as well but my buddy that works there refused to give it to me. That would have been best for my experiment but I had not really thought about it too much at the time and was more interested in his reaction when I asked for a JPX-800 demo.

The three Mizunos had the same midsize GP tour velvet grips and had stock length s300. My j36 has a midsize GP tour velvet grip and a PX rifle 6.0. Personally I prefer the 6.0 to the s300 but I would not have been able to play the Mizunos in all the same shaft had I chosen something different.

Now the lofts (model #, 6i loft, pw loft from full set)

MP-63, 30 , 46
MP-53, 30, 46
JPX-800Pro, 29, 45
J36, 31, 47

Method:
All the bays have hand measured distances to pins that are accurate so I chose a bay that had a pin exactly 170 away. I chose 170 because that is the edge of my comfort zone with my J36 6i thanks to some swing tip from resident pro Andy After warming up I continually swapped out each club in no particular order hitting at the most 3 balls before swapping to the next club. I avoided trying to hide which club I was hitting as they all look very different at address to me and I didn't see any benefit for trying to do that. I went through about 140 total balls in this manner. I hit another bucket afterwords comparing one specific club to my j36 but more on that at the end.

Results:

JPX-800Pro - High launch, very high ball flight, good distance. A well struck ball would carry 7-10 yards past the pin (177-180 carry.) I never really opened up and tried to crank one as I would never try that on the course. Misshits were forgiving and showed very little loss in distance but I would have liked a little more feedback on where he ball was struck on the face.

MP-53 - Mid launch, relatively high ball flight but more boring off the launch than the JPX-800Pro, average distance, A well struck ball would carry about 7-10 yards short of the pin (160-167 carry.) Misshits were strange with this club for me as when they were out on the toe the results were very inconsistant. The feedback was similar to what I get from my J36 but slightly more muted.

MP-63 - Mid launch, boring mid ball flight slightly higher than my J36, very good distance from 10 past to off the back of the target green (180-?) Mishits were very consistant across the face and resulted in holding the line well and getting nearly pin high. The feedback was perfect for me, not too harsh but more than enough to know where the ball was struck on the face in fact the sweet spot felt much larger on the MP-63 than the J36 as well as the MP-53.

J36 - Mid launch, boring low/mid ball flight, distance on a well struck ball pin high 170. Misshits on the toe and or high on the face resulted in considerable distance loss. The feedback is nice although my one and only stinger of the session came with my own club :O

Conclusions:
JPX-800Pro - Overall nice club but high ball flight makes it a no go for me, I was borderline ballooning a few times and my game is really built around playing the ball relatively low with a decent amount of spin.

MP-53 - Did not show much in the way of improving on what I already have, plus a higher launch and ball flight. I could see using a 3 and 4 iron version of this in a combo set but from 5 down I would not switch from my current clubs.

MP-63 Wow is all I can say. Great distance improvement from my current 6i plus added forgiveness of a seemingly larger sweetspot. I almost wish I never hit them

Now I realize that ideally I should have hit the JPX-800 6 iron but I think it is a fair assumption that my results would have been a magnified version of the JPX-800Pro. I also realize that this does not really fit into this thread because the JPX-800Pros are on the borderline of what we have been discussing here because they represent a company moving towards a more distance oriented line with slightly stronger lofts. For reference purposes the JPX-800 specs out at 28 for the 6 iron and 44 for the pitching wedge.

john

 

[c_ault]

Good write up John. :smile:

 

[johnnymo]

Good write up John. :smile:

Thanks C-ault, like I said this thread got me thinking and the result was my club ho super powers are becoming too much for a mere mortal to contain. :alien2:

john

 

[Sean]

I said earlier that the scorecard could care less about what clubs you play and what the lofts are...but as long as we are on the topic:

1957 Wilson Staff DynaPower Irons
2–21º
3–24º
4–27º
5–31º
6–35º
7–39º
8–43º
9–47º
PW–51º

2010 TaylorMade Burner 2.0
2–n/a
3–19º
4–21º
5–24º
6–27º
7–31º
8–35º
9–40º
PW–45º

Just about a two club difference. Yowza.

 

[tnc200]

Before 1985 who ever heard of a gap wedge? There was no gap, so no need for a gap wedge. Now they are selling us 3 club wedge sets and a couple hybrids to boot. Its like having 4 different sets of clubs in one bag, what a nightmare. In the end they can only sell what we are willing to buy.

 

[Hawk]

I just don't see how it's a nightmare. There a weaker lofted irons out there for those so inclined. You don't have to go with three wedges or any hybrids if you choose not to. I just don't see the negative in a 9 iron that travels farther with the same ball flight characteristics of a weaker lofted club.

 

[tnc200]

My problem with it is that it's hard enough to get dialed in to one set of clubs for a full shot swing. Now I have a set that ends with a pw that is 44*. 100,110 for me. My next club is a 50* gap 75 yds every time with a full shot swing. Same club line add on wedges. I still have a 25 yard gap. As a result I'm forced to try to do a half or three quarter swing when I'm still 90 yards out, with what should be a full shot swing club. My full shot swings result in a shot that won't roll out too much if at all. See I've got two wedges as well. Personally, I only want to buy and carry 2 wedges. These wedges should be the clubs I use for the half swing type stuff. So now I have an uneven spacing in my most important distance clubs in my bag. I just would like to see a set that had evenly spaced lofts through the full set. Say +- 20* to 50*. The last thing I care about is the number on a club. If it was important I hit a 9 iron 150yds I'd engrave a 9 on my 150yd club myself.

 

[TC]

My problem with it is that it's hard enough to get dialed in to one set of clubs for a full shot swing. Now I have a set that ends with a pw that is 44*. 100,110 for me. My next club is a 50* gap 75 yds every time with a full shot swing. Same club line add on wedges. I still have a 25 yard gap. As a result I'm forced to try to do a half or three quarter swing when I'm still 90 yards out, with what should be a full shot swing club. My full shot swings result in a shot that won't roll out too much if at all. See I've got two wedges as well. Personally, I only want to buy and carry 2 wedges. These wedges should be the clubs I use for the half swing type stuff. So now I have an uneven spacing in my most important distance clubs in my bag. I just would like to see a set that had evenly spaced lofts through the full set. Say +- 20* to 50*. The last thing I care about is the number on a club. If it was important I hit a 9 iron 150yds I'd engrave a 9 on my 150yd club myself.

course management baby! don't leave yourself w/approaches that you don't have in your bag. lay up to that 120 number or whatever isn't in your bread basket.

for the sake of conversation, lets say that w/your "jacked up, super duper strong lofted irons" you consistently hit your 8 iron 150 and your 9 iron 135-140. why not play off the tee to leave yourself at or around those numbers? by doing so, you may find that you hit less club off the tee (3wood or perhaps a hybrid), which are both more accurate, thus resulting in more fairways hit. it's not a bad situation to be in if you choose to look at it that way.

 

[Kmac]

course management baby! don't leave yourself w/approaches that you don't have in your bag. lay up to that 120 number or whatever isn't in your bread basket.

for the sake of conversation, lets say that w/your "jacked up, super duper strong lofted irons" you consistently hit your 8 iron 150 and your 9 iron 135-140. why not play off the tee to leave yourself at or around those numbers? by doing so, you may find that you hit less club off the tee (3wood or perhaps a hybrid), which are both more accurate, thus resulting in more fairways hit. it's not a bad situation to be in if you choose to look at it that way.

I believe what you are referring to is in this thread. Good stuff too.

 

[Hawk]

My set of Ci7's was a 24° thru 50° (4i-GW) and I found my gaps to be pretty even. I didn't use the low irons due to preferring hybrids and I used either one or two 'add-on' wedges depending on the course. Imo, the 60° is optional anyway. Something in the 50-52° (factory set or aftermarket) and something around 54-56° is just fine for me. To me, distance is a huge issue. When I am hitting a 6i instead of a 8i my accuracy and confidence takes a nose dive. Accessible distance is huge to many people.

 

[TC]

My set of Ci7's was a 24° thru 50° (4i-GW) and I found my gaps to be pretty even. I didn't use the low irons due to preferring hybrids and I used either one or two 'add-on' wedges depending on the course. Imo, the 60° is optional anyway. Something in the 50-52° (factory set or aftermarket) and something around 54-56° is just fine for me. To me, distance is a huge issue. When I am hitting a 6i instead of a 8i my accuracy and confidence takes a nose dive. Accessible distance is huge to many people.

same here, i'd much rather be hitting an approach with an 8i as opposed to a 6i, and it's nice that my super duper high powered 8i is my 155-160 club. it makes my decisions off of the tee easier for me. i think if we look at how these super duper strong lofted beasts help us, then it's easier to accept.

 

[tnc200]

Sounds more like club management to me.

 

[JB]

Sounds more like club management to me.

Then what do you do when you run out of clubs? IE the 3 iron? While it is club management, its also confidence. And I would be willing to wager that you play traditionally lofted irons correct?

 

[TC]

Sounds more like club management to me.

you can certainly call it whatever you will my man. if you have a gap that's hard to conquer, like many of us do, then i'd do what i could to not put myself in that position. i've seen it plenty. guys pull a driver just b/c it's a par 4, they don't think about what their 2nd shot may be like. i have 5* gaps between my scoring clubs and have never had an issue not being able to hit or be comfortable with a distance. maybe you should get a 48*, 52*, 56* wedge set? seems like that would be perfect compliment to your 44* PW.

 

[Hawk]

You hear the line, ' the lofts are jacked up' as if it's a tightly held secret. The fact is, yes lofts are stronger than they were in the past and anybody that pays attention to golf equipment is aware of it. What people don't say is, "the shafts are better too" or "the cg is much lower, so stronger lofts are needed to keep ballflight characteristics similar". There are reasons that clubs are lofted stronger, and yes, marketing is one of them.

Still, why does is really matter? I don't understand the negatives of hitting a ball with a club that behaves like every other 9 iron, but 10 yards farther. For some, distance isn't an issue. For many, it is. Some like a spinny ball and some don't. There is a plethora of choices out there and I just don't understand the argument that the evolution of equipment is a bad thing. It is making the game more accessible to everybody and that is a great thing.

If there are gapping issues, there are many ways to get around it. Buy different irons, buy different wedges, have your wedges bent, course management, different swings, etc. There aren't many ways to hit the ball further. You either swing faster or use the technology that is available to you.

 

[tnc200]

Then what do you do when you run out of clubs? IE the 3 iron? While it is club management, its also confidence. And I would be willing to wager that you play traditionally lofted irons correct?

I'm using an 06-07 model 3 at 20* and pw at 44* if thats traditional. I'm saying they put the gap where it affects me the most. Why not spread the gap at the longer irons, I'm far less disappointed if I can't find a distance match at 150,where I'm gonna be going for the center of the green, rather than at 100 where I want to be going at the flagstick.

 

[JB]

You hear the line, ' the lofts are jacked up' as if it's a tightly held secret. The fact is, yes lofts are stronger than they were in the past and anybody that pays attention to golf equipment is aware of it. What people don't say is, "the shafts are better too" or "the cg is much lower, so stronger lofts are needed to keep ballflight characteristics similar". There are reasons that clubs are lofted stronger, and yes, marketing is one of them.

Still, why does is really matter? I don't understand the negatives of hitting a ball with a club that behaves like every other 9 iron, but 10 yards farther. For some, distance isn't an issue. For many, it is. Some like a spinny ball and some don't. There is a plethora of choices out there and I just don't understand the argument that the evolution of equipment is a bad thing. It is making the game more accessible to everybody and that is a great thing.

If there are gapping issues, there are many ways to get around it. Buy different irons, buy different wedges, have your wedges bent, course management, different swings, etc. There aren't many ways to hit the ball further. You either swing faster or use the technology that is available to you.

Well said.

I'm using an 06-07 model 3 at 20* and pw at 44* if thats traditional. I'm saying they put the gap where it affects me the most. Why not spread the gap at the longer irons, I'm far less disappointed if I can't find a distance match at 150,where I'm gonna be going for the center of the green, rather than at 100 where I want to be going at the flagstick.

I was kidding.

I think they spread the gap differently because many of them include a GW now as an alternative because for many it is easier to work with than a blade wedge.

 

[Hawk]

I should add that I hope nobody interprets my posts as anything more than livey debate

 

[c_ault]

I was kidding.

***cough, cough***bull***cough cough

I don't believe that it is possible to kid when it was clearly stated that 44* PW was in play. You obviously have a strong bias when it comes to this topic and I don't believe it is helpful. tnc plays a 44* PW, when I had my bag listed in the signature it specifically stated I play Macgregor 1025C, a cavity back with a 45* PW. Neither Wishon or Maltby would advocate blades, they both say get fit and play what's right for you, so they can't be listed as "traditionlists."

 

[JB]

***cough, cough***bull***cough cough

I don't believe that it is possible to kid when it was clearly stated that 44* PW was in play. You obviously have a strong bias when it comes to this topic and I don't believe it is helpful. tnc plays a 44* PW, when I had my bag listed in the signature it specifically stated I play Macgregor 1025C, a cavity back with a 45* PW. Neither Wishon or Maltby would advocate blades, they both say get fit and play what's right for you, so they can't be listed as "traditionlists."

Ummmm. Clearly you dont know me at all. I have no bias one way or another. I think once you spend some more time on this site, you will realize that. As a reviewer of clubs, it is something I dont think one way or another on in testing. You can clearly see that in our reviews of clubs with traditional lofts. I play whats right for me and think everybody should do the same. From a pure numbers stand point if possible.

But thank you for that. If you want to call bias, I am pretty sure one of us has one. I find this topic quite polarizing and interesting, yet it seems some (not pointing fingers) want nothing more than to be validated. And frankly I am not sure what Wishon or anybody else matters to a discussion of personal opinion nor does blades vs cavities matter to this either.

 

[TC]

i think hawk's post a couple of posts back was a fantastic post. clearly, he made some good points about stronger lofts being used and he made a good argument as to why they're a good thing.

i want to hear an argument on why they are a bad thing, or why there's a stigma of marketing hype attached to them. better yet, convince me why i should play weaker lofted irons. please.

 

[JB]

i think hawk's post a couple of posts back was a fantastic post. clearly, he made some good points about stronger lofts being used and he made a good argument as to why they're a good thing.

i want to hear an argument on why they are a bad thing, or why there's a stigma of marketing hype attached to them. better yet, convince me why i should play weaker lofted irons. please.

I would, but I am biased. :laughing: