Rules Question: Incorrect drop

[wadesworld]

This is mainly for FourPutt, since he's the resident rules expert.

An interesting situation came up in my tournament the other day.

I hit a drive that I pulled way left, into an adjacent fairway I thought. We drove over the mounds separating my fairway from the other hole, and my heart sunk. The other fairway was very skinny, and there was a lateral water hazard on the far side. Not seeing my ball in the fairway and not believing it could be anywhere else, I picked the spot where I thought the ball was most likely to have entered the hazard, dropped within 2 club lengths and hit my third shot.

However, as we were driving to my cart-mate's ball, we found my original ball in the mounds between the holes. Apparently the angle was not near as severe as I thought, so my ball had simply stopped between the holes. Disgusted, I picked it up and finished the hole with the substituted ball. I hit the green with my next shot and two-putted. We recorded a triple for the hole (2-stroke penalty for what we thought was playing a wrong-ball)

After considering it a few holes, I thought it was going to be a DQ. I convinced myself that once I located my original ball, I should have gone back and corrected my mistake by playing the original ball and still assessing a two-stroke penalty. I spent the rest of the round thinking I was going to be DQ'd, so I played pretty loose and played pretty well.

After the round I consulted with the tour official. They also consulted with the course pro. They said it should be a one-stroke penalty for dropping at the wrong spot, and then it became the ball in play. They changed my scorecard to reflect that (I did protest that I didn't think it was only 1-stroke)

After reviewing the rules more closely I believe:

1) I did not play a wrong ball. Even an incorrectly substituted ball is still your ball. As such, there was no need to fix the problem or face a DQ for not doing so.

2) Once I dropped a ball, that ball became the ball in play. The original ball was thus, abandoned.

3) I did incur a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place. There is also a two-stroke penalty for incorrectly substituting a ball. However, 20-7(c) Note 3(a) says that when a player incurs a penalty for playing from a wrong place, no additional penalty is applied for substituting a ball when not permitted.

4) Even committees make mistakes. (In fairness to him, I was not in the running for anything, nor was anyone behind me, and there was only one person trying to take care of all the post-round tasks, so it's understandable they didn't research more deeply)

So, the triple we recorded was correct and should have stood.

That sound about right?

Edit:

For those just coming to the thread who want to skip all the discussion, the answer can be found here:

#50

 

[tequila4kapp]

Great example of how golf's rules are sometimes too complex.

 

[gillesam]

I had a similar situation in a medal a couple of months ago and it lead to a DQ. I had hit my 2nd shot on the first towards a tree at the edge of a stream. After looking for it for 5 minutes my playing partner and I came to the conclusion that it must be in the stream and then been washed away. I dropped a ball as if it had been in the hazard and then finished the hole. On my way to the 2nd green, the holes run parallel, I found the ball I thought I had "lost". My immediate reaction was it would be a DQ.

I spoke to our Pro when I finished to see if he had any idea of what the penalty would be or if it would be a DQ. He didn't know but reckoned it would be at least an additional 2 shot penalty but he would do some investigating and get back to me. He emailed me later the same day to say he was sure it would be a DQ as I hadn't corrected the mistake before I had finished the 1st, even though I didn't know I had made a mistake at that point. He identified the relevant rules for this, and a couple of example situations, which I have at home and will post after work tonight.

 

[SaffaClint]

Its a difficult situation but one that could have been avoided SO easily. All you had to do was tell your playing partners you weren't sure where the first shot had gone and as such were playing a provisional ball from the tee. At least that way of you got to sheets you thought the ball was and couldn't find it you could have declared it lost and played the provisional. If I'd been playing with you I'm afraid to say I'd have made you walk back to the tee and play from there as technically the ball was lost off the tee, even though you later found it. Dropping a ball from where you "think" it might have gone is a big no no in my eyes.

 

[blugold]

Yeah. Rule 15 says two strokes.

But I feel like this specific situation is mentioned in the rules or decisions. I have to wait to start digging.

 

[blugold]

I don't like this ruling.

At the same time I'm not sure if you were allowed to drop where you did. A provisional should have been hit, but I could be wrong.

 

[wadesworld]

I don't like this ruling.

At the same time I'm not sure if you were allowed to drop where you did. A provisional should have been hit, but I could be wrong.

The thing which makes my situation differ from the above is that I was virtually certain that my ball had been lost in the hazard. I was certain it had at least gotten to the fairway. Since it was not there, in my mind, I was virtually certain it had reached the hazard. It later turned out I was wrong, but absent any dissent from others, I was proceeding correctly under the rules, according to my assessment of the situation.

 

[blugold]

The thing which makes my situation differ from the above is that I was virtually certain that my ball had been lost in the hazard. I was certain it had at least gotten to the fairway. Since it was not there, in my mind, I was virtually certain it had reached the hazard. It later turned out I was wrong, but absent any dissent from others, I was proceeding correctly under the rules, according to my assessment of the situation.

I agree. This is a tough one.

 

[JLit]

I don't think it can be assumed a ball has went into a hazard. Pretty sure it has to be certain, without a doubt. Otherwise, played as a lost ball, and re-teed.

 

[Richard Rodgers]

Ignore the fact that you found the tee ball eventually.

Where you dropped the ball is the issue not the fact that you took a drop. You thought your ball had entered the water but we're not 100% sure of where. When you take a drop it has to be done as near the spot where the ball crossed the hazard. Because you didn't know where that point was the only option was to return to the tee as any drop without knowing where to drop would most likely be an illegal one.

 

[Tedfroop]

26-1/3.5

Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found

Q.A player's ball is struck towards a water hazard. It is known or virtually certain that the player's ball is in the water hazard, and he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?
A.As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.
If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.
In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).


Since the drop was made in accordance with rule 26 and you believed the ball was in the hazard then rule 26 applies - the drop was right and the place was right.

I would say the committee got it right.

The decisions on the rules cover almost every situation you can imagine and offer solutions to problems like this as they cover almost any situation you can imagine. They also provide relief from things like this by offering a lesser penalty than the breach of multiple rules.

 

[blugold]

I think it also depends if that pond had red or yellow stakes. Either way, I think 27-1 states that you should have played your second ball from the tee.

 

[oiler3535]

My only problem with 26-1/3.5 being applicable is I question what 'known or virtually certain' means. If I was your partner and you said off the tee you thought it would be in a hazard, I would agree with 'virtually certain'. If you had just said to me nothing or 'it's probably just in the next fairway' I would have told you to go back and hit 3 off the tee. If you were 'virtually certain', I would agree with Ted that you'd get 1 penalty stroke. Now, does that include the penalty for dropping originally? I.E. are you hitting 3 or 4 from your drop?

Once we had driven back and found the other ball, not knowing the ruling I probably would have suggested playing both balls out and then leaving it up to the committee.

I had what I consider a wrong drop made in my last tournament by the guy who ended up winning the A division at our men's club. He hit in the trees and was laying on top of a fallen tree stump. Many years ago it had been pushed over to avoid falling on the fairway, but was clearly never going to be removed. I told him I thought it was just unplayable, whereas he said he got free relief for GUR. He disagreed with me and just took a free drop behind the stump, then hit it back under, then took a second free drop. He ended up with double, but I'm pretty sure he sure have been DQd for an incorrect scorecard. I had told him he should play an extra ball there, but he declined. Ah well, it wasn't club championships so I didn't rat him out. Though I did subtly ask around and nobody said they thought he was right.

 

[TheWoo]

26-1/3.5

Ball Dropped Under Water Hazard Rule with Knowledge or Virtual Certainty; Original Ball Then Found

Q.A player's ball is struck towards a water hazard. It is known or virtually certain that the player's ball is in the water hazard, and he drops a ball under Rule 26-1b. Before he plays the dropped ball, his original ball is found within the five-minute search period. What is the ruling?
A.As it was known or virtually certain that the ball was in the water hazard when the player put the substituted ball into play, that ball was correctly substituted and he may not play the original ball.
If the original ball was found in the water hazard and this discovery affects the reference point for proceeding under Rule 26-1b, resulting in the substituted ball having been dropped in a wrong place, the player must correct the error under Rule 20-6. The player must proceed in accordance with any of the applicable options under Rule 26-1 with respect to the correct reference point (see Decisions 20-6/2 and 26-1/16). Otherwise, Rule 20-6 does not apply and the player must continue play with the dropped ball. In either case, the player incurs a penalty of one stroke under Rule 26-1.
In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).


Since the drop was made in accordance with rule 26 and you believed the ball was in the hazard then rule 26 applies - the drop was right and the place was right.

I would say the committee got it right.

The decisions on the rules cover almost every situation you can imagine and offer solutions to problems like this as they cover almost any situation you can imagine. They also provide relief from things like this by offering a lesser penalty than the breach of multiple rules.

I think it also depends if that pond had red or yellow stakes. Either way, I think 27-1 states that you should have played your second ball from the tee.

Tedfroop's reference seems to apply to this exact situation. If he was "virtually certain" the ball entered the hazard, you consult your playing partners about the line you believe the previous shot to have been hit, determine where it crossed, and proceed.

The lateral water hazard point is important - it's the only way to use the two club length process - but most courses define their water hazards as lateral (red stakes).

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[blugold]

Tedfroop's reference seems to apply to this exact situation. If he was "virtually certain" the ball entered the hazard, you consult your playing partners about the line you believe the previous shot to have been hit, determine where it crossed, and proceed.

The lateral water hazard point is important - it's the only way to use the two club length process - but most courses define their water hazards as lateral (red stakes).

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

except it doesn't. Wade found his ball after he played the drop.

 

[blugold]

26-1. Relief for Ball in Water Hazard


It is a question of fact whether a ball that has not been found after having
been struck toward a water hazard
is in the hazard. In the
absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that a ball struck toward a water
hazard, but not found, is in the hazard, the
player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
27-1. Stroke and Distance; Ball Out of Bounds; Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes

a. Proceeding Under Stroke and Distance

At any time, a player may, under penalty of one stroke, play a ball as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5), i.e., proceed under penalty of stroke and distance.
Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and distance.
b. Ball Out of Bounds

If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).
c. Ball Not Found Within Five Minutes
If a ball is lost as a result of not being found or identified as his by the player within five minutes after the player’s side or his or their caddies have begun to search for it, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

BALL IN WATER HAZARD

26-1/1

Meaning of "Known or Virtually Certain"

When a ball has been struck towards a water hazard and cannot be found, a player may not assume that his ball is in the water hazard simply because there is a possibility that the ball may be in the water hazard. In order to proceed under Rule 26-1, it must be "known or virtually certain" that the ball is in the water hazard. In the absence of "knowledge or virtual certainty" that it lies in a water hazard, a ball that cannot be found must be considered lost somewhere other than in a water hazard and the player must proceed under Rule 27-1.
When a player's ball cannot be found, "knowledge" may be gained that his ball is in a water hazard in a number of ways. The player or his caddie or other members of his match or group may actually observe the ball disappear into the water hazard. Evidence provided by other reliable witnesses may also establish that the ball is in the water hazard. Such evidence could come from a referee, an observer, spectators or other outside agencies. It is important that all readily accessible information be considered because, for example, the mere fact that a ball has splashed in a water hazard would not always provide "knowledge" that the ball is in the water hazard, as there are instances when a ball may skip out of, and come to rest outside, the hazard.
In the absence of "knowledge" that the ball is in the water hazard, Rule 26-1 requires there to be "virtual certainty" that the player's ball is in the water hazard in order to proceed under this Rule. Unlike "knowledge," "virtual certainty" implies some small degree of doubt about the actual location of a ball that has not been found. However, "virtual certainty" also means that, although the ball has not been found, when all readily available information is considered, the conclusion that there is nowhere that the ball could be except in the water hazard would be justified.
In determining whether "virtual certainty" exists, some of the relevant factors in the area of the water hazard to be considered include topography, turf conditions, grass heights, visibility, weather conditions and the proximity of trees, bushes and abnormal ground conditions.
The same principles would apply for a ball that may have been moved by an outside agency (Rule 18-1) or a ball that has not been found and may be in an obstruction (Rule 24-3) or an abnormal ground condition (Rule 25-1c). (Revised)

 

[blugold]

I read decision 26-1/1 as saying that it should have been 3 from the tee. Or hitting 4 from the point of the bad drop.

 

[TheWoo]

Thanks for the language around "virtually certain", blugold. I hadn't read that in a long time, and it certainly seems more restrictive than my interpretation. The fact that a splash can't count is pretty lame, IMO. It also makes it virtually impossible to claim a ball entered a water hazard that you can't see.

I personally don't like the definition.

 

[blugold]

Thanks for the language around "virtually certain", blugold. I hadn't read that in a long time, and it certainly seems more restrictive than my interpretation. The fact that a splash can't count is pretty lame, IMO. It also makes it virtually impossible to claim a ball entered a water hazard that you can't see.

I personally don't like the definition.

FWIW, a splash doesn't always provide knowledge. But I agree, I wouldn't expect anything less from the rules of golf and the USGA.

 

[Fourputt]

This is mainly for FourPutt, since he's the resident rules expert.

An interesting situation came up in my tournament the other day.

I hit a drive that I pulled way left, into an adjacent fairway I thought. We drove over the mounds separating my fairway from the other hole, and my heart sunk. The other fairway was very skinny, and there was a lateral water hazard on the far side. Not seeing my ball in the fairway and not believing it could be anywhere else, I picked the spot where I thought the ball was most likely to have entered the hazard, dropped within 2 club lengths and hit my third shot.

However, as we were driving to my cart-mate's ball, we found my original ball in the mounds between the holes. Apparently the angle was not near as severe as I thought, so my ball had simply stopped between the holes. Disgusted, I picked it up and finished the hole with the substituted ball. I hit the green with my next shot and two-putted. We recorded a triple for the hole (2-stroke penalty for what we thought was playing a wrong-ball)

After considering it a few holes, I thought it was going to be a DQ. I convinced myself that once I located my original ball, I should have gone back and corrected my mistake by playing the original ball and still assessing a two-stroke penalty. I spent the rest of the round thinking I was going to be DQ'd, so I played pretty loose and played pretty well.

After the round I consulted with the tour official. They also consulted with the course pro. They said it should be a one-stroke penalty for dropping at the wrong spot, and then it became the ball in play. They changed my scorecard to reflect that (I did protest that I didn't think it was only 1-stroke)

After reviewing the rules more closely I believe:

1) I did not play a wrong ball. Even an incorrectly substituted ball is still your ball. As such, there was no need to fix the problem or face a DQ for not doing so.

2) Once I dropped a ball, that ball became the ball in play. The original ball was thus, abandoned.

3) I did incur a two-stroke penalty for playing from a wrong place. There is also a two-stroke penalty for incorrectly substituting a ball. However, 20-7(c) Note 3(a) says that when a player incurs a penalty for playing from a wrong place, no additional penalty is applied for substituting a ball when not permitted.

4) Even committees make mistakes. (In fairness to him, I was not in the running for anything, nor was anyone behind me, and there was only one person trying to take care of all the post-round tasks, so it's understandable they didn't research more deeply)

So, the triple we recorded was correct and should have stood.

That sound about right?

Late chiming in here but yes you are correct. You were proceeding under a rule which you thought was applicable, and once you played a stroke at the substituted ball, it became the ball in play. The only way that it might have ended badly (DQ) is if the wrong place was deemed to have given you a significant advantage. The it is considered a serious breach and must be corrected before you play from the next tee.

 

[Tedfroop]

From my understanding there was virtual certainty the ball was in the hazard in that case the decision fits exactly:

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).

It was not Wades fault there was no spotter to determine his ball was not in the water. If not it is up to him and his fellow competitors to decide if the ball could likely have gotten to the hazard. That would make for virtual certainty as the hazard was out of sight. If that was the case it is one stroke.

Going back to the tee would have been the better plan but as he did not it was a wrongly substituted ball. When a wrongly substituted ball is dropped it is in play. Since it is in play it can not be a wrong place to play from, just a wrongly substituted ball.

 

[blugold]

From my understanding there was virtual certainty the ball was in the hazard in that case the decision fits exactly:

In the unlikely event that the original ball was found outside the water hazard, the player must continue with the dropped ball under penalty of one stroke (Rule 26-1).

It was not Wades fault there was no spotter to determine his ball was not in the water. If not it is up to him and his fellow competitors to decide if the ball could likely have gotten to the hazard. That would make for virtual certainty as the hazard was out of sight. If that was the case it is one stroke.

Going back to the tee would have been the better plan but as he did not it was a wrongly substituted ball. When a wrongly substituted ball is dropped it is in play. Since it is in play it can not be a wrong place to play from, just a wrongly substituted ball.

I guess, I don't know how certain it was that the original ball was in the hazard. That's where it gets iffy for me. Point of reference, Wade I'm not calling you a cheater. I just called the director of golf at my home course and he was stumped. Without being there, or seeing the hole, I have no real idea. I would have just recommended hitting a provisional.

 

[blugold]

Late chiming in here but yes you are correct. You were proceeding under a rule which you thought was applicable, and once you played a stroke at the substituted ball, it became the ball in play. The only way that it might have ended badly (DQ) is if the wrong place was deemed to have given you a significant advantage. The it is considered a serious breach and must be corrected before you play from the next tee.

But my question is, once the second ball is dropped, is Wade playing his third shot or his fourth?

 

[TheWoo]

I guess, I don't know how certain it was that the original ball was in the hazard. That's where it gets iffy for me. Point of reference, Wade I'm not calling you a cheater. I just called the director of golf at my home course and he was stumped. Without being there, or seeing the hole, I have no real idea. I would have just recommended hitting a provisional.

But a provisional is of no use if you believe the ball to be in a water hazard. You can't play a provisional if you think it is in a hazard (another rule I don't like).

 

[blugold]

But a provisional is of no use if you believe the ball to be in a water hazard. You can't play a provisional if you think it is in a hazard (another rule I don't like).

I don't know if virtual certainty applies here though. If Wade didn't know the hazard was in play when he left the tee box, then I don't believe he can be virtually certain that the ball went into the hazard when he comes to it. On a side note, I found this decision which doesn't help this discussion at all.