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Interesting Shaft vs Head Comment

Nippon Shafts
i would just blame me
 
I can definitely see that with the soft shaft but not sure I would make the comment on the stout shaft being the head problem. Personally would probably be requesting to try another shaft.
 
If I'm hooking it..
The shaft is probably too stout.
If I'm slicing it, hell has frozen over and my back foot slipped on the ice.

The shaft vs head case is just another example of perception. The old feel vs real saw.
 
That makes sense. A stiff shaft leads to a hard head…
 
I could buy that
 
I was with you until "Both of those things are regardless of results."

If the results were great, was the shaft really too soft or too stiff?

Was he presenting this as a case study of the ego of the golfer? If the golfer knew what they were hitting, it sure seems to point to the fact that people innately want to play a stiffer shaft, whether it is right for them or not. Makes you wonder how many fittings would come to the same conclusion if they were done blind.
 
It makes sense to me. With too stiff of a shaft probably not feeling it load/unload so really thinking they are only feeling the head. Interesting though, hadn't ever thought of that.
 
JB said:
Had a long talk with a now retired club designer yesterday, who's resume is pretty stellar. He said in his testing and working with everything from tour players to high handicaps, one thing held true.

If he handed a player a club with a shaft that was too soft, and they hit it, they said the shaft was not for them.
If he handed a player a club with a shaft that was too stout, and they hit it, they said they didnt like the club head.

Both of those things are regardless of results.

Do you agree or disagree? And why?
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I can see that because I would think the stiffer the shaft and based on the OEM it can take all the feel out of it and make you ignore what the head it providing at impact.
 
RomaParisZurich said:
I was with you until "Both of those things are regardless of results."

If the results were great, was the shaft really too soft or too stiff?

Was he presenting this as a case study of the ego of the golfer? If the golfer knew what they were hitting, it sure seems to point to the fact that people innately want to play a stiffer shaft, whether it is right for them or not. Makes you wonder how many fittings would come to the same conclusion if they were done blind.
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No, feel is a real thing for golfers.
After 50 years in the industry and one of my mentors in club design aspects, it was just a conversation.

In the case of him working with players, half the time the shafts aren't even labled, so it wouldn't necessarily be an ego thing.
 
smgoldstein said:
Makes sense. Seems like an ego thing to me. "This is a X flex-must be the head"
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Sorry for the segue, but I was talking to a fitter last year and he had a customer looking for a new driver. They tried a variety of head/shaft combos, but nothing was any real improvement over his current driver. The fitter handed him another driver, the guy hit it, and was gaining a legitimate 20 yards. He got very excited. Then he looked down at the shaft and saw it was "L" flex. He told the fitter he only plays stiff flex and would never play ladies flex. Not only did the guy leave 20 yards on the table he insisted on buying a new driver even though it was no better than his current one. Heck, I would play a pink, Hello Kitty shaft if it got 20 more yards, lol.
 
That’s an interesting observation. I wonder if this is as true for graphite shafts, especially ones that have a more complex profile, as it is for steel.
 
Hmm. I’ve never really thought about that. I would how much shaft materials and grip types influence this as well.
 
Interesting comments, i totally get the feel of a shaft being too soft easily identified but i would think the same would reply with a shaft being too stiff. I'm not sure my thought process would shift to not liking the club head, but i honestly have never thought about it.
 
haha I don't think I have ever blamed the head for feel in terms of driver. It's more of what I feel in my hands during the swing and if loading seems to be happening properly.


Interesting insight for sure though and I could see it being true for those who think they "need" stiffer shafts than they can play
 
I've never thought about that but I can see where it's coming from. When I've tried shafts that are too soft they feel too active(?) and I can't control anything. I don't know that I've ever blamed the club head when the shaft was too stiff though. When I first got my Edel irons with steelfiber 95S in them I immediately hated the shaft. Maybe it's because I had hit the head in other shafts that I liked so much better so I knew it wasn't a head issue?
 
Hmmm, interesting, but me, no, I seldom if ever look at or blame the head, maybe it's my having a slower swing speed. I might blame the weight of the shaft, but not the head. Maybe I need do more testing.
 
JB said:
No, feel is a real thing for golfers.
After 50 years in the industry and one of my mentors in club design aspects, it was just a conversation.

In the case of him working with players, half the time the shafts aren't even labled, so it wouldn't necessarily be an ego thing.
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I can't disagree...I'll take his word for it that these were observations from his clients.

It is really interesting this holds true from scratch to high handicaps (implying that this is true for both high and low swing speeds).

Did your mentor have an explanation?

My thinking was in line with most of the other explanations above. Too soft/whippy must be easier to feel (then blame the shaft). Is the difference in the preferred shaft load from ideal to too stout much smaller than from too soft to ideal? Maybe a shaft that is too stout is close-ish to the desired feel, so they blame the head?

Was this consistent for both irons and woods?
 
For me, I feel like its much easier to distinguish a shaft that is way too soft vs. too stout so I could easily see myself drawing those same conclusions. If I'm not able to really distinguish a shaft that is too stout, doesn't leave me any other equipment to question other than the club head I guess.

Its kind of interesting that the responses he got were consistent even up to tour pros who probably have the best feel for all this stuff.
 
I can see that making sense. Much easier to feel the shaft whip when it’s very flexible. And when a shaft is very stout, an off-centre strike will likely feel more “harsh”.

I remember trying Project X Rifle 6.0 shafts in my irons and how I felt after a round, and comparing that to when I swapped in a shaft with a softer profile. The feeling of a mis-hit was completely different.
 
If the club head is the same, my question would be why isn't the club head identified in both scenarios? Is there something with the stiffness that affects that feel?
 
chile said:
If the club head is the same, my question would be why isn't the club head identified in both scenarios? Is there something with the stiffness that affects that feel?
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Perception?
 
JB said:
Perception?
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Maybe. I only offer this... My AI Smoke Max does feel different between the R flex tensei and the S flex Kaili white. Not the shaft flex, but the contact feels different but I think that is just me misinterpreting what is causing the club head to feel that way vs the shaft flex... If that makes sense.
 
I have equated the two variables similar to something outside of golf.

Hit an object with a willow branch and you get the smooth sensation without the pain. However you can't really control it.

Hit an object with a dead branch and you have more control, but you feel all the pain. You can control how bad the pain is :ROFLMAO:

Interesting feedback for sure and can see how it correlates to shafts.
 
I’d probably disagree as an across the board statement. I swung my son’s driver with an X flex Trono and actually really liked it. I swung it with an S flex mid-mid and didn’t. My reaction to both setups were shaft related feelings. I either couldn’t distinguish a head feel difference or was paying more attention to the shafts. I’m probably weird and in the outlier group… again. I’ve never tried it on a club I’ve never hit before though. Seems like a fun test.
 
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