- Admin
- #26
THere is more to it than that Paul. Perimeter weighting and larger surface area to start with.
For the fans of cavity irons...proof the tour players are with you!?
SunsetBeachGolf
Truly Custom Putters
Most PROS are going for the money. Bidding can get very cut throat for the high end guys and the lower guys need the money to help out. When they perform poorly you think X company is going to offer them the same deal they had when they were playing well? No they do not, so X player starts looking around and finds someone willing to give him the best money. All said and done almost any manufacturer can make their clubs feel and look like any other club the player may have had.
You really think Callaway was just so much better than Titleist that Phil decided to leave? You think Titleist would not make Phil what ever he wanted?
Norman is a different animal altogether. He has not had a club contract for some time and Norman is a guy who it is well known to be extremely wealthy. He does not need the money and do you really think a mid 50's guy that has not been playing a whole lot and will conitnue to not play a whole lot was high on the companies "I want X playing our clubs" list? No he wasn't and he did not need the money.
I do not deny that there are some players that do not switch for money, but there are many, many of them that do. Now I may be off in some of this but I believe I am mostly right as I have talked to and still talk to many Pro players and have heard how ugly some things can get.
I have all I want to say on this subject and do not want things to get out of control, but saying all amateurs are playing blades and should not be or PGA players play cavities because they are better and because of this amateurs should play them to are blanket statements and do a dis service to the people who play what is best for them. The sheep will be lead no matter what is said by playing what the pro's play and that is why many companies are getting the pros to play their cavities because it is better for those sheep.
You really think Callaway was just so much better than Titleist that Phil decided to leave? You think Titleist would not make Phil what ever he wanted?
Norman is a different animal altogether. He has not had a club contract for some time and Norman is a guy who it is well known to be extremely wealthy. He does not need the money and do you really think a mid 50's guy that has not been playing a whole lot and will conitnue to not play a whole lot was high on the companies "I want X playing our clubs" list? No he wasn't and he did not need the money.
I do not deny that there are some players that do not switch for money, but there are many, many of them that do. Now I may be off in some of this but I believe I am mostly right as I have talked to and still talk to many Pro players and have heard how ugly some things can get.
I have all I want to say on this subject and do not want things to get out of control, but saying all amateurs are playing blades and should not be or PGA players play cavities because they are better and because of this amateurs should play them to are blanket statements and do a dis service to the people who play what is best for them. The sheep will be lead no matter what is said by playing what the pro's play and that is why many companies are getting the pros to play their cavities because it is better for those sheep.
paulthewitt
Member
- Thread starter
- #28
Forgot about the larger head thing! good point that!
I think perimeter weighting only helps if not hit in the centre though doesnt it!? if the club face is open it still goes right.
I definately believe that CB are better for most/all players, just a personal choice i guess. As with many things golf, if someone is confident plaing equipment that isnt best for them they will still play a better score than using equipment they are not confident with (not due to equipment...but how the psychology then affects their swing). I reckon a lot of this is true of blades....and if it works, why change it? then again, if you can get confident with summit even better then your scores could drop.
Spoiler
PS:
I also realised that chris said what i was trying to in the first paragraph of his first post! Whoops on my count for duplication!!!
- Admin
- #29
I dont think anybody said that on this forum despite what was said in that article. However Your thoughts support mine. Titleist possibly would have built Phil whatever he wanted, but maybe he hit those Callways and liked them more so he left. You dont think Titleist would have paid him? Same with all of them.
I agree that many pros take the money, but MOST pros can get the money from anywhere and choose what clubs to play. We speak to them all the time and to the companies and they both say the same story. Both on and off the record.
Its amazing sitting down and talking to someone like Duffy. He had offers when he QUIT Titleist to sign with 5 different companies. He hit all the clubs and went with what he liked the best. Same with each person we spoke with.
I agree that many pros take the money, but MOST pros can get the money from anywhere and choose what clubs to play. We speak to them all the time and to the companies and they both say the same story. Both on and off the record.
Its amazing sitting down and talking to someone like Duffy. He had offers when he QUIT Titleist to sign with 5 different companies. He hit all the clubs and went with what he liked the best. Same with each person we spoke with.
TheGasman
I Like to Party
SunsetBeachGolf
Truly Custom Putters
Yeah they more than doubled it.
As far as whether an amateur should be playing with blades or not, of course they probably should not be. However letting some talking head with an article or Duffy Waldorf make that decision for them is ludicrous. I for one would let myself be judged by Joe Kwok or Dana Upshaw make that decision.
I do know that Dana fits golfers into whatever they do the best with. He has heads from Taylormade, Callaway, Mizuno and other OEM's plus all of the usual suspects in the component industry.
I do remember very well a 12 handicapper getting fitted into a set of Mizuno blades. It was very surprising to the guy as he had always played cavity backs, but with Dana's system his mishits went down to zero and his distance increased 15 yards with a 7 iron and his dispersion was 50% better or something like that.
Is the case above common? Hell no, but to throw a blanket statement out there the way the writer of the article did is irresponsible, just like it is irresponsible to buy something only because a tour player uses it. Or it is irresponsible to buy irons without being fitted, and I am not talking fitted at your local store as most shops do not have the proper equipment to properly fit nor build the clubs for you.
Someone like Dana does, with 5.1, 5.2, 5.3, 5.4 and so on with regard to flexes and can really work any parallel iron shaft down to where you would not believe the difference. I remember one guy with only a 5 cpm change on his irons netting a 12 yard increase in distance and better dispersion as well.
If you have time I would recommend seeing someone like Dana who is truly one of the best fitters in the US. Is it cheap? Nope. Is it worth it? Yep. I mean if you can change as little as Dana has done on some people and get the results you get why would you not, the changes and gains in distance and direction are amazing in some of the stories that guys that have been fitted by Dana have told.
JB....you and I just need to stay out of these threads...LOL We are just going to have to agree to disagree for the reasons I stated above as I do not think we will ever see eye to eye on this issue.
- Admin
- #32
You are right about this. And nobody should decide what irons they should play but themselves. However I think you mistook my Duffy Information. What I said is that he was in a similar situation. He was offered contracts by many different manufacturers and money had nothing to do with his decision because all of the contracts were the same. He chose the best equipment FOR HIM.
We have spoken to tons of pros who have said the same thing. It is not the contract that makes their mind up because outside of the top 10, most of the contracts are the same. They go with the clubs that feel the best.
We are speaking with Brian Gay, Zach Johnson, and two others over the next few weeks and will discuss things with them as well and possibly put an article together.
As for this thread, we will get this one less side tracked, rather than debate the merits of why pros choose clubs.
We have spoken to tons of pros who have said the same thing. It is not the contract that makes their mind up because outside of the top 10, most of the contracts are the same. They go with the clubs that feel the best.
We are speaking with Brian Gay, Zach Johnson, and two others over the next few weeks and will discuss things with them as well and possibly put an article together.
As for this thread, we will get this one less side tracked, rather than debate the merits of why pros choose clubs.
The way I look at it, if so many of the pros are now playing CBs, I see no reason why an amateur golfer thinks they will get any benefit from blades. I still say its all ego.
To each their own though, if someone wants to play blades, more power to 'em!
To each their own though, if someone wants to play blades, more power to 'em!
Why does anyone care?
Why does anyone care?
I often wonder why so many cavity back players seem bound and determined that this issue never dies.
I can see why a tour pro would want every last bit of forgiveness. He already has grooved a good swing, so he can hit whatever he wants.
I can see why so many amateurs play Cavity backs....there is and endless torrent of anti-blade sentiment from club sellers and insecure CB players who can't be happy until they convince everyone that blade players are WRONG.
Wrong about what? I like to play golf for the fun and the challenge. Blades make me focus tremendously on my swing. They make me pay attention to every range ball.
Blades are what I grew up on. Blades are what I carried as a caddy at Chicago Golf. Blades look better at address.
I'll go so far as to say that anyone who can't hit the sweetspot from the 7 iron on down should take their $500 and buy a lifetime bucket card, Not the newest most expensive shovels made of unobtainium.
Oh, and by the way. The manufacturers who pay tour pros the most have a serious multi million dollar agenda that includes inexpensive CAST clubs for the masses. Cast clubs don't require skilled labor. If
Taylor Made paid me a few million, I'll tell you whatever they want me to tell you. I'd tell you that you should swing the new 2009 Taylor Made pick axes if they made them.
Forged blades are not that much harder to hit if you focus and don't try to swing out of your shoes every time. They keep you in tune with your swing better if you don't play everyday like a tour pro.
Don't believe everything you hear just because someone you THINK is an expert told you so. Find out for yourself so you will KNOW what works for you. cavity backs is like having sex with a neoprene condom on. No feel at all.
People who play blades are forced to always pay attention to their swing. That's part of the enjoyment of the game.
Sure they have mishits that a Cavity back would cover up.....but why?
I'd rather give up a stroke or two than give up the instant feedback. Playing
Ben Hogan found his swing by digging it out of the Texas dirt. He didn't rely on someone else's opinion. And I'm quite sure that he would not care one bit what anyone else played.
So for all you folks who seem dead sure about what I (and all blade players) should or should not be playing.....I ask "Why do you care?" Really. Think about it awhile. What possible benefit could you derive from proving us wrong?
I don't care what you play. Play whatever you want. Frankly, I don't care if Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods and Nick Faldo personally drive to my home to tell me I should play cavity backs and that I'm an ego-driven wannabe if I don't. They can turn around and leave, because I play blades for reasons I am comfortable with.
Never worry about what's in somebody else's bag or why. Worry about your own game. Everyone wants a quick fix these days. They crave "game improvement" clubs to mask swing flaws. They need articles and quotes from professional proxies that assuage their bruised egos about playing shovels.
Play what you like and let blade players do the same without rubbing their nose in the latest industry propaganda.
Why does anyone care?
I often wonder why so many cavity back players seem bound and determined that this issue never dies.
I can see why a tour pro would want every last bit of forgiveness. He already has grooved a good swing, so he can hit whatever he wants.
I can see why so many amateurs play Cavity backs....there is and endless torrent of anti-blade sentiment from club sellers and insecure CB players who can't be happy until they convince everyone that blade players are WRONG.
Wrong about what? I like to play golf for the fun and the challenge. Blades make me focus tremendously on my swing. They make me pay attention to every range ball.
Blades are what I grew up on. Blades are what I carried as a caddy at Chicago Golf. Blades look better at address.
I'll go so far as to say that anyone who can't hit the sweetspot from the 7 iron on down should take their $500 and buy a lifetime bucket card, Not the newest most expensive shovels made of unobtainium.
Oh, and by the way. The manufacturers who pay tour pros the most have a serious multi million dollar agenda that includes inexpensive CAST clubs for the masses. Cast clubs don't require skilled labor. If
Taylor Made paid me a few million, I'll tell you whatever they want me to tell you. I'd tell you that you should swing the new 2009 Taylor Made pick axes if they made them.
Forged blades are not that much harder to hit if you focus and don't try to swing out of your shoes every time. They keep you in tune with your swing better if you don't play everyday like a tour pro.
Don't believe everything you hear just because someone you THINK is an expert told you so. Find out for yourself so you will KNOW what works for you. cavity backs is like having sex with a neoprene condom on. No feel at all.
People who play blades are forced to always pay attention to their swing. That's part of the enjoyment of the game.
Sure they have mishits that a Cavity back would cover up.....but why?
I'd rather give up a stroke or two than give up the instant feedback. Playing
Ben Hogan found his swing by digging it out of the Texas dirt. He didn't rely on someone else's opinion. And I'm quite sure that he would not care one bit what anyone else played.
So for all you folks who seem dead sure about what I (and all blade players) should or should not be playing.....I ask "Why do you care?" Really. Think about it awhile. What possible benefit could you derive from proving us wrong?
I don't care what you play. Play whatever you want. Frankly, I don't care if Jack Nicklaus, Tiger Woods and Nick Faldo personally drive to my home to tell me I should play cavity backs and that I'm an ego-driven wannabe if I don't. They can turn around and leave, because I play blades for reasons I am comfortable with.
Never worry about what's in somebody else's bag or why. Worry about your own game. Everyone wants a quick fix these days. They crave "game improvement" clubs to mask swing flaws. They need articles and quotes from professional proxies that assuage their bruised egos about playing shovels.
Play what you like and let blade players do the same without rubbing their nose in the latest industry propaganda.
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C
ChristianGolfer
Guest
Wow. I thought this was friendly banter......
The same could be said about blade players. It seems like every forum that I read you have blade players who talk about the superior feel of blades and how blades make you a better player.
Its as if they look down their noses at people who play CBs.
I do agree with you on one thing: to each their own. You keep your blades, I'll keep my CBs and we'll both be happy. :good:
I agree with almost everything you wrote there. If you want to play blades, no one is stopping you. Do it.
I kind of see a "pissed off" tone in there as well, and frankly, I'd feel the same way if everyone was telling me to do something differently then the way I grew up.
For me, I'll stick with CB's for two reasons. I'm not good enough for blades, and blades are too expensive.
C
ChristianGolfer
Guest
Well said Bakemono. To each his/her own.
I'll give you a 3rd reason: golf is hard enough already, no sense in making it any harder.
True, but if I could afford it...I wouldn't mind practicing with blades.
But yes, golf is fricking hard. I think it is easily the hardest sport. (With respect to hockey, the most athletically demanding sport)
Blades would be good to practice with, because it would force you to make a better swing and you get more feedback.
Ive often thought about buying an MP-67 off of Ebay to practice with. Id love to have a whole set of MP-67s in my bag, but Id prefer to have clubs that dont require me to be perfect all the time.
Some days my swing is great and other days its crap, so I want the forgivness.
If you don't have to be as precise with your ball striking, then how do you know if your ballstriking is getting better, getting worse or just staying the same ?
An offset cavity back with a tungsten doo hickey may make you feel good in the short run when crappy shots start to look OK, but isn't that going to come back to bite you in the long run? You'll just stop improving because the feedback you need to improve has been muffled.
Golf is about the challenge of building a great swing, not about popping over to the course once a year and expecting to hit it 300 yards.
When you put in the work and build it, it won't matter what clubs you play, you will know that its YOU, and not the clubs that earned the score on the card.
There are no short cuts. I will never trade a good swing and the enjoyment of earning it plus $1000 bucks for a slightly better score. Everyone wants a quick fix. Every one wants to buy, buy buy their troubles away.
Not everyone has the time to devote to perfecting their swing. They just want to go out and enjoy themselves and thats what CBs offer. They allow someone with a swing which isnt always perfect to at least hit halfway decent shots.
Even with CBs, you still have to make a decent swing. Even with the most forgiving clubs in the world, you still need to have a pretty decent swing in order to card a good score.
Your attitude is a perfect example of what I mean when I talk about blade players acting like they are better than people who play CBs.
This is true, and I will slow my roll here. I don't play cavity backs mainly because of the cost, backwards as that sounds. If you know what clubs the pros played in the 1980's, you can buy a tour quality set of blades for under $100 bucks now. I bought a full set of beautiful, mint condition Cleveland Tour Action 588T irons the other day at Golf Galaxy......for less than a tank of gas. Imagine that. A blade every bit as good as Titleist 680's for $50 bucks. I'll spend the other $950 dollars on buckets and rounds. Its the indian not the arrow.
C
ChristianGolfer
Guest
One style of club IS NOT better than the other. The style of club the individual chooses works for the individual that uses it. If one was DEFINITIVELY better than the other then more than likely a lot of the pros would use(I think). Since this isn't the case those that play blades should not "look down" on those that play CB's and CB's should not wag the finger at those that play blades. IMHO this is really not a discussion in which anyone should get SO upset. Don't worry be happy now.......:blob:
ActionJackson8
KAHHHHHNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!
What is this a WRX or TST thread?
I think we all need to, "slow our roll". I didnt mean to attack people who play blades and I aplogize if I came across that way.
Cool. Sounds like a heck of a deal.
C
ChristianGolfer
Guest
I was thinking that too but I was too afraid to type it!
ActionJackson8
KAHHHHHNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!
I like that people like to use that analogy on a regular basis as it has a lot of merit as a generality but on an individual basis it is perhaps to vague to say the least. Instead of using allegory or anecdotal experience why not look at who purchases irons. It's not tour pros, most of should NEVER compare our games to tour pros, it is fruitless. And....lets say I give that analogy a lot merit (which I should not)....As someone who used to rely on firearms in his profession I can tell you that for certain people, some "arrows" fit much better to certain Indians. By and large most amateurs should be using cavity backs, most play a few times at once and do not have the time to devote to the practice a blades demands. Most amateurs struggle to get the ball in the air and keep it straight let alone take advantage of the shot shaping ability of the blade. The fact that you show offense to people suggesting that cavity backs be considered over blades only leads credence to the fact that we consider it to be ego driven, thank you for proving our point.
ActionJackson8
KAHHHHHNNNNNNNN!!!!!!!!!!
Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of a censor on my mouth or hand in this instance.
Edit: I can see Harry turning that comment against me.