Rules Question: Incorrect drop

[TripleBogieTim]

Going back to blugold's response from the USGA, I think I now have a complete picture of the situation:

To summarize:

1) When the original tee ball was played, a provisional ball should have been played since it was not known or virtually certain that the ball was in the hazard.
2) When the ball was not located, and absent virtual certainty that the ball was in the hazard, I was subject to 27-1 stroke and distance, and should have returned to the tee to play my third shot.
3) Since I dropped a ball where I was not permitted to drop a ball, I played from a wrong place and was subject to a two-stroke penalty.
4) Had the breech been a serious one, I would have been required to correct the error by playing a second ball under 20-7c or could face disqualification.

So, for those keeping score at home, that's:

Stroke one: original tee ball
Stroke two: penalty stroke under 27-1 for lost ball (distance part of this penalty was negated by my incorrect drop)
Strokes three and four: 2 stroke penalty for playing from wrong place

So I was playing my 5th stroke with the ball I dropped.

Now, with all that said, Fourputt was correct that I proceeded in a correct manner for what I thought had happened. Given that and the location of my original ball (in a much more favorable location), I don't think the committee would have ever considered what happened a serious breech. I was only hurting myself by my incorrect application of the rules.

As Fourputt said, my application of "virtual certainty" will definitely be more strict in the future.

Or just don't hit it over there again....that would be easier right

 

[Texasbrons]

Not that it would matter as to the end outcome of your tournament at this point, but for educational purposes are you going to print of the USGA's decision and share it with your rules official? It may help him if a situation like this ever comes up again.

 

[wadesworld]

Not that it would matter as to the end outcome of your tournament at this point, but for educational purposes are you going to print of the USGA's decision and share it with your rules official? It may help him if a situation like this ever comes up again.

Yeah, I will do.

 

[sabig27]

Do I get accepted to law school now after following this thread? It seems like I would qualify. Way too complicated, but good job to all on trying to sort it out.

 

[sabig27]

Thanks Blue for the USGA response. I enjoyed watching their videos.

I sent an email to the USGA asking about this situation. My email to the USGA: I hope you don't mind Wade. Their response:

 

[Fourputt]

Just two things there:

- You can not play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard or out of bounds. If you do the second ball hit is in play and you must finish the hole with it. Your next stroke will be your fourth. If you find your first in the hazard and play it after hitting another from the tee that is a wrong ball and you must correct it before you tee off on the next hole.

- This is the kind of situation where it is very good practice to involve your fellow competitors in deciding what happened. Someone else may know the course better and be better able to determine if your ball made it to the hazard. That and you make it easy on the official to give you a bit of a break as their main function is the protection of the field, and having your fellow competitors have a voice here can really help. If you said you thought you made the water and someone else said you didn't you may have kept looking in the right place.

You most certainly can play a provisional ball if your original ball might be out of bounds. You can also play a provisional ball if it is uncertain whether the original ball may be lost in or out of a hazard. Basically, if there is doubt, play the provisional unless it's known that the only place it can be lost is in a hazard.

 

[blugold]

You most certainly can play a provisional ball if your original ball might be out of bounds. You can also play a provisional ball if it is uncertain whether the original ball may be lost in or out of a hazard. Basically, if there is doubt, play the provisional unless it's known that the only place it can be lost is in a hazard.

Also important, to piggy back you a bit, if you are playing a provisional, it must be announced by you, to the group.

 

[TheWoo]

Also important, to piggy back you a bit, if you are playing a provisional, it must be announced by you, to the group.

And in some way identifiable from the original ball.

 

[Tedfroop]

You most certainly can play a provisional ball if your original ball might be out of bounds. You can also play a provisional ball if it is uncertain whether the original ball may be lost in or out of a hazard. Basically, if there is doubt, play the provisional unless it's known that the only place it can be lost is in a hazard.

You can not play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard or out of bounds - Should have been more clear - I meant a ball known to be out of bounds.

Also important, to piggy back you a bit, if you are playing a provisional, it must be announced by you, to the group.

Yes indeed, very clearly.

Thanks for getting the clarification blugold. Missed the playing from past where the original ball was being one more stroke. I knew it could not be more then two strokes though. Golf math is weird at best but multiple penalties from a single act net you one penalty applied. (2+2=2)

And in some way identifiable from the original ball.

That is the most important bit. If you can not tell them apart your headed back to the tee and hitting your fifth.

 

[blugold]

You can not play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard or out of bounds - Should have been more clear - I meant a ball known to be out of bounds.



Yes indeed, very clearly.

What? That makes little sense to me. Are you sure.

 

[sabig27]

I thought you had to play a provisional when you hit a ball out of bounds?

You can not play a provisional for a ball lost in a hazard or out of bounds - Should have been more clear - I meant a ball known to be out of bounds.



Yes indeed, very clearly.

 

[blugold]

I thought you had to play a provisional when you hit a ball out of bounds?

If you have any doubt whether your ball is OB, you can and should play a provisional.

 

[Kobey]

If the ball is known to be out of bounds you have to hit another with stroke and distance, but it isn't called a provisional.

 

[wadesworld]

I thought you had to play a provisional when you hit a ball out of bounds?

If your ball is KNOWN or virtually certain to be out of bounds or in a water hazard, you cannot play a provisional.

Simply seeing your ball headed towards the water or out of bounds is not sufficient for it to be known to be out of bounds, so in the case where you hit the ball towards the OOB or hazard and you're pretty sure it's in there, then you can and should hit a provisional. Even if your ball is going 200 MPH dead left over a fence that's 30 yards away, you still don't KNOW that it's OB and you can hit a provisional.

Situations where you KNOW that your ball is OOB on in a hazard would be when you can see it there. Or like in professional tournaments, when a marshall signals that the ball is OOB or in the hazard because they saw it land there and not come out. But there are very few situations where I think you would lose an argument that you were entitled to hit a provisional. Even seeing a ball splash in a water hazard may not be sufficient evidence the ball is in the hazard, depending on the trajectory and the closeness to the edge of the hazard.

 

[Fourputt]

You can still play a provisional ball even if your original ball was seen to go out of bounds. The provisional ball will become the ball in play when it's finally determined that the original ball is indeed out of bounds, but we have all seen golf balls take weird bounces, so anything is possible until proven otherwise.

 

[TheWoo]

Question. If I think I may have hit into a water hazard but am not sure, but also believe it could be lost and therefore hit a provisional, and then find my ball to be in the hazard, do I have the option of playing my provisional OR taking relief under another method?

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[wadesworld]

Question. If I think I may have hit into a water hazard but am not sure, but also believe it could be lost and therefore hit a provisional, and then find my ball to be in the hazard, do I have the option of playing my provisional OR taking relief under another method?

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

No. Once you find your ball in the hazard, the only relief options are those prescribed in Rule 26-1, "Relief for ball in water hazard."

If you cannot find your ball at all, absent certainty or virtual certainty that it is in the hazard, then you proceed under 27-1 as a lost ball, in which case, you could play your provisional and it would become the ball in play.

 

[blugold]

No. Once you find your ball in the hazard, the only relief options are those prescribed in Rule 26-1, "Relief for ball in water hazard."

If you cannot find your ball at all, absent certainty or virtual certainty that it is in the hazard, then you proceed under 27-1 as a lost ball, in which case, you could play your provisional and it would become the ball in play.

I know this horse is beaten to death. But it is important to know the fullest definition of "virtual certainty".

 

[TheWoo]

No. Once you find your ball in the hazard, the only relief options are those prescribed in Rule 26-1, "Relief for ball in water hazard."

If you cannot find your ball at all, absent certainty or virtual certainty that it is in the hazard, then you proceed under 27-1 as a lost ball, in which case, you could play your provisional and it would become the ball in play.

That's what my understanding has been - that, even if I would choose to return to the tee and play again, that I have to do that rather than play the provisional. That's a frustrating rule - especially in situations where that would be the only logical play.

I'd like for the rules to be rewritten to allow a player on the tee to declare that he will either play the ball from the hazard or utilize the provisional under 26-1. I'm fine with saying that precludes utilizing the two club length or line of sight options, but it creates an unnecessary trip back to the tee otherwise.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

 

[blugold]

Now I'm confused. Why would you have to return to the tee if your ball is in the hazard?

 

[Kobey]

You can still play a provisional ball even if your original ball was seen to go out of bounds. The provisional ball will become the ball in play when it's finally determined that the original ball is indeed out of bounds, but we have all seen golf balls take weird bounces, so anything is possible until proven otherwise.

That's where the rules are confusing people. If your ball is known to be out of bounds you cannot hit a provisional. A provisional is only for when you aren't sure. If it's certain, you follow the exact same steps as you would for a provisional but you wouldn't announce it as one. You would simply hit another with your stroke and distance penalty.

 

[wadesworld]

Now I'm confused. Why would you have to return to the tee if your ball is in the hazard?

He's saying if he chooses the stroke and distance option. Certainly not something that comes up often, but I believe he's correct. Even if you hit a provisional in case your ball was lost outside the hazard and then find out it's in the hazard, you'd have to return to the spot where you last hit if you're not going to exercise one of the other hazard options.

 

[blugold]

He's saying if he chooses the stroke and distance option. Certainly not something that comes up often, but I believe he's correct. Even if you hit a provisional in case your ball was lost outside the hazard and then find out it's in the hazard, you'd have to return to the spot where you last hit if you're not going to exercise one of the other hazard options.

That sounds better. I can only really think of a few odd instances where going back to the tee would be a better option that the hazard relief.

 

[wadesworld]

That's where the rules are confusing people. If your ball is known to be out of bounds you cannot hit a provisional. A provisional is only for when you aren't sure. If it's certain, you follow the exact same steps as you would for a provisional but you wouldn't announce it as one. You would simply hit another with your stroke and distance penalty.

Well, there is no penalty for hitting a provisional when it is not permitted. It simply becomes the ball in play. So, even if you KNOW your ball is out of bounds and you announce you're hitting a provisional, there is no consequence, as long as you continue to play the new ball.

 

[Kobey]

That's what my understanding has been - that, even if I would choose to return to the tee and play again, that I have to do that rather than play the provisional. That's a frustrating rule - especially in situations where that would be the only logical play.

I'd like for the rules to be rewritten to allow a player on the tee to declare that he will either play the ball from the hazard or utilize the provisional under 26-1. I'm fine with saying that precludes utilizing the two club length or line of sight options, but it creates an unnecessary trip back to the tee otherwise.

Sent from my HTCONE using Tapatalk 4 Beta

But if your ball is in the hazard, you can take the drop and not have to go all the way back to the tee or where you played your last shot from.