Why is greenside spin so important?

[thedue]

I've never had lesson on imparting spin, but it seems I have to contact the ball first in a downward motion, with my hands leading the club head through the hitting area.

If I decelerate or don't get the hands through first I'll generally put more forward roll on the ball.

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[cj3ap2]

Gus is right about the lag and hitting down somewhat on the ball, but the "trapping" is more of misnomer. It should feel like you're trapping the ball, but the ball does not get pushed into the turf. There are videos out there that show a golf ball instantly starts to climb up the face of the club at contact due to the loft of the club and grooves in the face.

Kevin

Yeah, i think understand the concept in what happens is you "trap it" which causes the ball to ride up the grooves and that causes the ball to have backspin while it's momentum carries it forward. I just had no idea of how to execute that idea. I had heard the idea of the descending blow and traping it, but never the lagging. What i would try to do is come down and strike the ball at a sharper angle (which as RxGus points out in the post below the one i'm quoting, that causes the ball to skull). The idea of lagging the club to trap makes sense to me and I feel is a concept I could execute. Thanks again gentlemen

 

[Esox]

Yeah, i think understand the concept in what happens is you "trap it" which causes the ball to ride up the grooves and that causes the ball to have backspin while it's momentum carries it forward. I just had no idea of how to execute that idea. I had heard the idea of the descending blow and traping it, but never the lagging. What i would try to do is come down and strike the ball at a sharper angle (which as RxGus points out in the post below the one i'm quoting, that causes the ball to skull). The idea of lagging the club to trap makes sense to me and I feel is a concept I could execute. Thanks again gentlemen

The lag allows the "clip", the word I used in my first post in this thread. Just for the heck of it, here's the video of golf balls climbing up different irons.

Kevin

[YOUTUBE]0mPAlrikWcw&NR=1[/YOUTUBE]

 

[RxGus]

Oh goodness. People around here are starting to listen to me like I know what I am talking about... Thats never good

I promise you, if you actually saw me play golf you wouldn't listen to a word I said about spin! Ha!

 

[Sean]

I find that I can be more aggressive with chips/pitches using a golf ball that spins, especially to a tight pin, because I know the ball will check up.

 

[Esox]

Oh goodness. People around here are starting to listen to me like I know what I am talking about... Thats never good

I promise you, if you actually saw me play golf you wouldn't listen to a word I said about spin! Ha!

Those who can't teach. LOL. You explained it well, why shouldn't someone listen? Plus, I was here reading this thread, and I wouldn't have let you get away with giving bad advice.

Kevin

 

[Fourputt]

For me it is all about playing approach shots to a number in most cases and I want the ball to stick or stop at the number and not roll. If I switch balls to one that will not stick, I would have to re-learn where to hit short into the greens to offset the roll.
I flag hunt and I want it to stop dead. This is the reason I don't like the whole idea of the wedge change.

I don't think that Hawk was talking about approach shots. Any ball can be stopped dead from the fairway on a decently executed full shot with most irons. He's talking about the litte chips and pitches around the green, and I agree with his assessment. In those cases, spin is over rated and often over used. I think that more consistent results can be achieved by playing a shot with very little spin. It's certainly better for me anyway, and I've tried both ways.

I think it has alot to do with chipping styles. My father-in-law uses more of a bump and run type shot as where I use more of a flop, spinny type. When I use the harder ball it never stops before the hole.

Why would you want it to? You'll never hole a chip if they always stop short.

I have demoed new irons & wedges and it changes more for me than you may think. I'll stick with what works.

I've been playing "new" irons (with 2010 grooves) for 2 years, and my approach shots spin just as much as they ever have. Every so often, I even back up an E6 "hard" ball with them - I've even gotten about 6 feet of backspin with an 8I. You're buying into the hype.

Spin comes from hitting the ball sharply (clubhead speed is directly related to speed) and pinching the ball between the club and the turf.

Yet another myth. If you actually did pinch the ball against the turf you wouldn't like the results. The moment that a properly swung clubhead makes contact with the ball it starts to go up. In order to be pinched it would have to move downward. That only happens when the ball is topped.

 

[tnc200]

I play the softer balls cause thats whats best for my game. Fairways are my game wrecker and I seem to get enough spin to keep my approaches where I want to if I actually hit the shot I intend. Long irons and hybrids? Can anyone make a hybrid or long iron check or stick? I don't like putting the softer balls however. I can feel the difference, and while I'm used to it I prefer a tour ball for putting. I've never been a fan of the pro v but I do like the z star, I just can't afford them. I give 2 or 3 to the course each round so I'll stick to my finders and buck a ball noodles,laddies etc...

 

[Snap Hook]

First off, no flames allowed. This is an honest attempt to hear people's thoughts on a topic I've been thinking about a little lately.

I've been pondering greenside spin and its importance for my game. I look back at last summer when I played the e6 the majority of the time and my short game was my strength. I knew what the ball would do and I played for it. To me, short game is good technique mixed with feel. It's not how much the ball is going to spin. I just want to know what the ball is going to do so I can visualize it in my head before the shot.

I can honestly say that playing an harder covered ball never affected my green side game in a negative way. The plus side was that I had the benefit of using a ball that 1) I could compress well 2) limited side spin 3) got the most distance from. The one negative was that, when the greens were very firm, I could over run greens with a long iron or hybrd, but I think that's an easy adjustment as well. I never had an issue stopping the ball quickly with a scoring iron or wedge.

I see people make comments that a harder covered ball would make it too hard for them to score and I just wonder if that's based on reality or on perception and marketing. Especially when that spin that is so sought after may be hurting their ability to get to the green.

I like what you wrote here about the need to be able to visualize what the ball is going to do on the green. IMO if you gave a "tour spin" level ball a try you would see that it gives more shot choices. (probably either the high flop with some bite, or a low pitch/chip that checks in a predictable manner) And once your comfortable with it, you can then visualize more shots and it's always good to have more options because one option might yield a higher possibility of success than the other. Of course its gonna spin more, but don't expect complete full stop and reverse all of a sudden on chip shots or anything.

 

[the_paulo]

I don't have the stats, but I can be certain that the vast majority of amateurs, in the vast majority of (well struck) cases, hit their approaches (whether 20 yards or 200 yards), short of the hole. I don't see the big rush to have it check up in that case.

Choose a ball that you feel comfortable with. If it's 20 yards shorter off the tee, that's a choice you make. Just don't get caught up in the marketing.

(easy for me to say! :wink

 

[JB]

I'd say this is true and leads this 20hc to his question: how do you generate spin on greenside shots?

Around the greens i usually chip/pitch by playing the ball back in my stance, feet closer together, slight forward press and i accelerate through the shot, and i think i've never generated any backspin, i'm sure there's something (more likely mutliple somethings) i'm missing?
I have been watching and reading all sorts of golf tips that i've been finding this winter including a spin tip that tells me to keep the clubhead low and short on the follow through, i've been trying that on my carpet (which is very thin and hard for reference) and been noticing some success, but until the snow melts I won't know for sure.

Same thing for full shots, i have full cavity backs so I assume i won't be able to generate nearly as much backspin as I could with blades, but I don't know how to make swings on my approach that get the ball to stick. I feel as though every green I hit with every club I hit, lands to hard and runs more than it should. Is it just ball trajectory and I need to work on follow through position?

Practice makes perfect. The fear that most amateurs have is hitting it too hard and not trusting the spin will stop it. It leads to deceleration which will leads to thick and thin misses with no spin.

 

[bogey_russ]

i can get balls to spin... the problem is id rather have them check and stop dead than spin
my target is almost always in front of the flag so i am never anticipating spin... if it spins it means its getting farther away from the flag then i intended
this is why i try to play bump and runs greenside because its much more predictable keeping the ball closer to the ground
but thats also dependent on whats in the way

 

[Golf 'N Gator]

I don't think that Hawk was talking about approach shots. Any ball can be stopped dead from the fairway on a decently executed full shot with most irons. He's talking about the litte chips and pitches around the green, and I agree with his assessment. In those cases, spin is over rated and often over used. I think that more consistent results can be achieved by playing a shot with very little spin. It's certainly better for me anyway, and I've tried both ways.

Not sure why there is the need to question what I say works for me. I'm only concerned about what I know works for me.

I've been playing "new" irons (with 2010 grooves) for 2 years, and my approach shots spin just as much as they ever have. Every so often, I even back up an E6 "hard" ball with them - I've even gotten about 6 feet of backspin with an 8I. You're buying into the hype.

I'm not buying into anything and again I'm not sure I understand the need to question what works for me. Like I said, I have spent a huge amount of time demo'ing new groove irons and wedges and I do not like the results I see.

What works for me, more than likely will not work for anyone else.

 

[StLCardsFan]

It's pretty simple really. You want to have it for when you need it. You can make or lose a lot of shots around the green. If I'm facing a delicate chip shot with the green running away from me, I want to know that I can loft the ball in the air and have it stick so it doesn't roll too far past the hole. Let's say you have a two tier green and the pin is cut 6 feet from the tier, you want to be able to get the ball to the top and make it stop as quickly as possible.

Not everyone can pull those shots off, but it's nice to have the proper bullets in the gun to do it.

 

[Hawk]

I understand your point, StL, but what about the guy losing 10-15 yards off the tee or that has problems with side spin? Is it worth it for them to have to hit an extra club or two into the green so they can have that shot covered (that may only come up once a round or less)?

 

[StLCardsFan]

I understand your point, StL, but what about the guy losing 10-15 yards off the tee or that has problems with side spin? Is it worth it for them to have to hit an extra club or two into the green so they can have that shot covered (that may only come up once a round or less)?

I gave my opinion why some people (including myself) might find greenside spin important. It’s not really my place to say why other people select the ball that they do. Maybe they want the greenside spin for different shots than what I mentioned. Maybe they play on really hard greens and want all the spin they can get in order to hold the green better. Maybe they don’t have a problem with distance or sidespin so they want an advantage around the green. Maybe they are just stupid and don’t know any better. Some people like putting with a softer feeling ball, so maybe they are willing to sacrifice elsewhere to get the putting feel that they want.

You mentioned in the first post that playing a harder covered ball has not affected your greenside game in a negative way. Perhaps with some people, playing a harder covered ball will affect their greenside game in a negative manner. It would for me and there are plenty of reasons why, and it has nothing to do with perception and/or marketing. Are those the same reasons for everyone? Maybe, maybe not, what works for one, might not work for someone else.

 

[lcsmrtn]

I think it's important for a player to have what matches their game. The OP will get different answer from different type of players, there is no right answer that will fit every player.

Someone who is short off the tee may need to hit longer irons into every green, it may get difficult to stick the green with long irons on a regular basis. Sure you could land it short and let it roll out, but what do you with a forced carry? I know it's been posted here a few times about the ball landing short and spinning back, why is that the balls fault? Just land the ball beyond the flag and have it come back.

Green side spin is important to many players, for others it's not as important. I think the more fitting question wouldn't be is greenside spin important, but are most amateur players using the correct ball for their game? It's why ball fittings are becoming more prevalent.

 

[Hawk]

I gave my opinion why some people (including myself) might find greenside spin important. It’s not really my place to say why other people select the ball that they do. Maybe they want the greenside spin for different shots than what I mentioned. Maybe they play on really hard greens and want all the spin they can get in order to hold the green better. Maybe they don’t have a problem with distance or sidespin so they want an advantage around the green. Maybe they are just stupid and don’t know any better. Some people like putting with a softer feeling ball, so maybe they are willing to sacrifice elsewhere to get the putting feel that they want.

You mentioned in the first post that playing a harder covered ball has not affected your greenside game in a negative way. Perhaps with some people, playing a harder covered ball will affect their greenside game in a negative manner. It would for me and there are plenty of reasons why, and it has nothing to do with perception and/or marketing. Are those the same reasons for everyone? Maybe, maybe not, what works for one, might not work for someone else.

Like I said earlier, I'm not saying that I know what's right for everybody. I play with somebody that really has his technique perfectly matched towards a urethane covered ball and I have no doubt that you know what works best for your game. I'm just throwing out some things that came to my mind.

 

[Hawk]

I think the more fitting question wouldn't be is greenside spin important, but are most amateur players using the correct ball for their game? It's why ball fittings are becoming more prevalent.

Exactly my thought as well. I just know that I was fit for a ball with a surlyn cover, but my mind often tells me that I need to be playing a urethane covered ball, even though it may not give me the best results. I know I'm not the only person out there that has the same thing going on and I wonder why.

 

[cj3ap2]

Practice makes perfect. The fear that most amateurs have is hitting it too hard and not trusting the spin will stop it. It leads to deceleration which will leads to thick and thin misses with no spin.

I agree, there are no shortcuts in golf. Any area you want to be proficient at you have to practice practice practic practice and after you do that, then you have to practice some more.

 

[lcsmrtn]

Exactly my thought as well. I just know that I was fit for a ball with a surlyn cover, but my mind often tells me that I need to be playing a urethane covered ball, even though it may not give me the best results. I know I'm not the only person out there that has the same thing going on and I wonder why.

Simple, amateurs want to emulate the pros. If it works for them, it should work for us, no one likes to admit they're not as good as we think/are.

 

[Hawk]

Simple, amateurs want to emulate the pros. If it works for them, it should work for us, no one likes to admit they're not as good as we think/are.

I think that's part of it, but I also think it's because of advertising and social status. Again, I AM NOT CALLING ANYBODY OUT. I just admitted that I do it myself.

 

[JB]

I think that's part of it, but I also think it's because of advertising and social status. Again, I AM NOT CALLING ANYBODY OUT. I just admitted that I do it myself.

Of course it is. I too would not call someone out for it. But there is a reason companies spend millions every year on marketing. If it didnt work, nobody would spend the money.

 

[the_paulo]

With ball fitting becoming more 'mainstream' if you like, will this trend of going towards tour balls slow down? Will it add a couple of dollars to a box of balls to compensate for 'fitting costs' (ie revenue lost from premium ball sales)? Or will the very popular companies just plough more into the marketing side of things to try to marginalise the smaller companies who offer good fitting service?

 

[One-T]

I dont think it is very important. hell, I dont ever really spin the ball, I am just not that type of player. I pick where I want the ball to land on the green and try to judge how much it will roll out