What Is A Cheater?

[Smallville]

I'm not arguing what the rules are. I fully understand that part.

But if the desert is considered OB, why couldn't you lay two at the point where it went into OB?

Actually, laying three would be closer to correct, since the third shot would have been a re-tee.

 

[NikeGolf]

Actually, laying three would be closer to correct, since the third shot would have been a re-tee.

Laying two, shooting three at the point of entry into OB.

Yes? No?

I guess I'm not fully understanding what you mean.

 

[Hawk]

What are some opinions of "playing by the rules" versus "slow play"?

I know that the players behind me wouldn't appreciate me going back to the tee if I lose a ball or go OB on my tee shot. By the time I declare a ball lost, the next group is usually on the tee taking practice swings. I take my penalty and drop as fairly as I can. I don't feel like I can head back to the tee and slow down people more than I already have. Is re-teeing considered acceptable at some of the nicer clubs? At the munis I play I would be running the risk of getting tackled.

*Edit* I suppose will start playing a provisional.

 

[C-Tech]

I'm not arguing what the rules are. I fully understand that part.

But if the desert is considered OB, why couldn't you lay two at the point where it went into OB?

The desert is not considered OB unless marked as such. In either case, the penalty for a lost ball or OB are the same, loss of stroke and DISTANCE. You have to go back to where you last played and replay the shot. That is the rules.

 

[Smallville]

Laying two, shooting three at the point of entry into OB.

Yes? No?

I guess I'm not fully understanding what you mean.

What's not to understand?

OK, here's the rule for Out of Bounds, from usga.org:

b. Ball Out of Bounds
If a ball is out of bounds, the player must play a ball, under penalty of one stroke, as nearly as possible at the spot from which the original ball was last played (see Rule 20-5).

So if you are going to just drop instead of rehitting, shouldn't you add the stroke that would have been the rehit, plus the penalty stroke?

 

[C-Tech]

What's not to understand?

OK, here's the rule for Out of Bounds, from usga.org:


So if you are going to just drop instead of rehitting, shouldn't you add the stroke that would have been the rehit, plus the penalty stroke?

But Smalls, the rules don't make any allowance for dropping at the point of entry with two penalty strokes. Its pretty clear you have to go back and lose the distance as well as the stroke. If you go back to the original spot and hit another OB, then just dropping at the point of entry would be creating an unfair advantage???

 

[Fourputt]

What are some opinions of "playing by the rules" versus "slow play"?

I don't understand the question? Do you feel that the two are somehow incompatible? If so, then you are mistaken. There is a group I occasionally play with here. We play by the rules of golf, and we often play as a fivesome, and if we aren't being held up by smaller groups, we play in 4 hours or less.

I can see the reasoning for the (desert) rule though. I would think it speeds up play quite a bit.

Also, what's the margin for error in regards to how close the desert is to being out of play? I mean, if you're only talking a 20 yard margin for error, then I could see the complaint of having to go back to the box to hit three, not to mention a narrow hole can be very difficult, maybe too difficult, for inconsistent drivers. I would know, I used to be one!

As long as their HCP stays within that particular course and is used solely at that course for your league, I don't see the harm in letting them drop where it entered the "hazard" and shooting three from there.

Why is it so hard to consider a provisional ball when the first ball is headed toward the desert? The provisional ball takes a few seconds to hit so you can play by the rules and still play at a normal pace. It is just as fast and far more equitable than the drop method.

His league plays several different courses, so that theory isn't valid. Dropping is like I always see suggested is simply not logical under the rules. It was even tried back in 1960 and the rule change was rescinded a year later as not being equitable under the principles of the game. Even if you drop lying 3, it's wrong because who is to say that you wouldn't hit the 2nd shot OB as well? On a bad day, you could be lying 7 or more by the time you get a ball in play.

But Smalls, the rules don't make any allowance for dropping at the point of entry with two penalty strokes. Its pretty clear you have to go back and lose the distance as well as the stroke. If you go back to the original spot and hit another OB, then just dropping at the point of entry would be creating an unfair advantage???

Is this just too simple? Or do we just fool ourselves into believing that the ball will always stop before it crosses that line? When you see the ball headed in a direction that might lead to OB/lost ball, then you just play a provisional. It won't cover every lost ball, sometimes they just vanish, but it will take care of playing by the rules for 95% of such errant shots. It certainly takes a lot less time to do that than all of this debating and teeth gnashing.

 

[C-Tech]

Is this just too simple? Or do we just fool ourselves into believing that the ball will always stop before it crosses that line? When you see the ball headed in a direction that might lead to OB/lost ball, then you just play a provisional. It won't cover every lost ball, sometimes they just vanish, but it will take care of playing by the rules for 95% of such errant shots. It certainly takes a lot less time to do that than all of this debating and teeth gnashing.

In our men's club, we always play a provisional in order to keep up pace of play. Still, we get fooled on occasion and someone has to return to the tee. I never saw it hold up play more than a few minutes. Is it really a big deal if the round lasts 4:10 instead of 4:00 hours?

 

[Sean]

Last year in our club championship a poor fellow in our group had to take seven shots off the tee. He'd hit his tee shot, then a provisional, we'd go look for the ball(s), couldn't find them, and he'd have to go back to the tee. We did this seven times. By the time the fellow finally hit one in play there were four groups waiting to tee off on that hole. It backed everything up. That's okay, as this was a tournament, but I can imagine what would happen if this happened on a casual weekend round of golf (the courses around here are packed): people would be having fits. If the provisional can't be found, then drop one where the ball went OB and hit your fourth shot.

Sometimes common sense has to prevail.

 

[v3.0]

Here is the desert, as I am sure you see in NV, many local courses have a local rule referred to as the "desert rule". Basically, to keep up the pace of play, they treat balls hit into the desert as if they were hit into a hazard. You drop the ball nearest to the point of entry with a one stroke penalty. In actuality, it is a lost ball and the player should have played a provisional or go back to the tee. The premise is that it speeds play, and it probably does, at the expense of the rules of golf.

Last year, my men's club voted not to use "desert rules" and it has been the source of much gnashing of teeth amongst the group. Particularly, the poor drivers have been crying that it is hurting their handicaps. Duh, when you stop cheating, your handicap is going to rise.

Question: Can a course not legitimately declare the desert a hazard, have it 'rated' and 'sloped' accordingly, and satisfy both the course marshalls and the USGA rules?

 

[provisional]

We have that rule out here as well, but I rarely see it used in sanctioned events. Some of the courses up north in St George, and Mesquite also use it. It's not really posted, but if you ask the pro shop, they will allow it during fun rounds. Most of the time it is so the golfer does not go out into the desert area and find a snake instead of a ball. Now a lot of golfers will treat an OB/Lost ball the same as a lateral water hazard. I've done it myself, but never in a sanctioned event. This of course is wrong, but if they don't use a provisional ball, it does keep pace of play moving a long

Here is the desert, as I am sure you see in NV, many local courses have a local rule referred to as the "desert rule". Basically, to keep up the pace of play, they treat balls hit into the desert as if they were hit into a hazard. You drop the ball nearest to the point of entry with a one stroke penalty. In actuality, it is a lost ball and the player should have played a provisional or go back to the tee. The premise is that it speeds play, and it probably does, at the expense of the rules of golf.

Last year, my men's club voted not to use "desert rules" and it has been the source of much gnashing of teeth amongst the group. Particularly, the poor drivers have been crying that it is hurting their handicaps. Duh, when you stop cheating, your handicap is going to rise.

 

[Fourputt]

Question: Can a course not legitimately declare the desert a hazard, have it 'rated' and 'sloped' accordingly, and satisfy both the course marshalls and the USGA rules?

It is not allowed under the rules. The definition of water hazard is:

Water Hazard
A "water hazard" is any sea, lake, pond, river, ditch, surface drainage ditch or other open water course (whether or not containing water) and anything of a similar nature on the course . All ground and water within the margin of a water hazard are part of the water hazard.

When the margin of a water hazard is defined by stakes, the stakes are inside the water hazard, and the margin of the hazard is defined by the nearest outside points of the stakes at ground level. When both stakes and lines are used to indicate a water hazard, the stakes identify the hazard and the lines define the hazard margin. When the margin of a water hazard is defined by a line on the ground, the line itself is in the water hazard. The margin of a water hazard extends vertically upwards and downwards.

A ball is in a water hazard when it lies in or any part of it touches the water hazard.

Stakes used to define the margin of or identify a water hazard are obstructions.

Even if the hazard only contains water during a once a year rainstorm, it still must have the capacity of being some sort of watercourse to be called a water hazard under the rules. If a course decides to violate that definition to speed up casual play, then nobody is going to shut them down over it, but they also cannot hold any sort of a sanctioned competition with such a rule in place.

 

[dynarider]

Going to break 2-3 rules next time I play & afterwards I'm considering running while holding scissors

 

[C-Tech]

Some desert courses have washes marked with red stakes as water hazards. Like 4P says, they must have the capacity to have water in them during some period. Our washes qualify as they will run quite well after a rain. Some areas will be marked with white OB stakes and are treated as such. The rest is just desert and if you can find it and play it, fine. If not, it is a lost ball and the rules of golf apply. Back to the previous spot with a penalty stroke.

 

[C-Tech]

One another note, I am always amazed that so many people believe the rules of golf are optional and the people who insist on playing by the rules themselves are subject to ridicule. I always wonder if these people would feel the same way if their kid's little league opponent balked and the ump decided to ignore the infraction. After all, it is only a little thing and doesn't make any more sense than the lost ball rule in golf.

Having ref'ed many of my kid's soccer matches because the real ref did not show, I can tell you from experience that both sides want the letter and spirit of the rules observed. Why is it so many people don't feel the same way when they play golf?

 

[NikeGolf]

One another note, I am always amazed that so many people believe the rules of golf are optional and the people who insist on playing by the rules themselves are subject to ridicule. I always wonder if these people would feel the same way if their kid's little league opponent balked and the ump decided to ignore the infraction. After all, it is only a little thing and doesn't make any more sense than the lost ball rule in golf.

Having ref'ed many of my kid's soccer matches because the real ref did not show, I can tell you from experience that both sides want the letter and spirit of the rules observed. Why is it so many people don't feel the same way when they play golf?

You've got to go situation by situation. If it's a tournament, sanctioned event, money at stake, or recording score for HCP, I would think MOST (I hope) golfers would play by all rules.

If it's just a casual round w/ a buddy or two, then I don't think following every rule to a T is crucial.

 

[Fourputt]

You've got to go situation by situation. If it's a tournament, sanctioned event, money at stake, or recording score for HCP, I would think MOST (I hope) golfers would play by all rules.

If it's just a casual round w/ a buddy or two, then I don't think following every rule to a T is crucial.

What I don't see is why you differentiate the two. They are one and the same. You are supposedly playing golf, and golf is game of rules. It doesn't take any longer to play by the rules than it does to ignore them. It's at least as much fun to play by the rules, and in my opinion it's more fun to do so. All of the excuses people come up with for ignoring the rules are just so many soap bubbles.... they are insubstantial excuses, not reasons.

You want to play by your own rules, that's fine with me. :confused2: I don't really care what you do, but don't try to justify it with flimsy excuses, 'cause that boat won't float.

 

[NikeGolf]

What I don't see is why you differentiate the two. They are one and the same. You are supposedly playing golf, and golf is game of rules. It doesn't take any longer to play by the rules than it does to ignore them. It's at least as much fun to play by the rules, and in my opinion it's more fun to do so. All of the excuses people come up with for ignoring the rules are just so many soap bubbles.... they are insubstantial excuses, not reasons.

You want to play by your own rules, that's fine with me. :confused2: I don't really care what you do, but don't try to justify it with flimsy excuses, 'cause that boat won't float.

On a casual round, you expect everyone to play by the rules to a T?

I'm sorry, but no.

I remember back when I first started golf. I got a membership at a goat track. I had a buddy who I would golf with. We golfed a lot. We were both just getting into golf, and we wanted to get in as much time as we could.

We both took it serious and strived to get better everyday. But, to think it was crucial for us to play by all the rules is just not plausible. Hell, we would take mulligans a lot, shoot two or three balls from one spot until we got a good one. I would always carry an extra ball in my pocket for just that purpose. We wouldn't keep score. It just didn't matter. I guess if a person is just out hitting a bunch of balls, not keeping score, and not playing by all the rules, that they in turn aren't really "golfing". I guess a person could look at it that way.

But, like I said, we both wanted as many swings on the course that we could get. It was a little used course, and we never held anyone up.

So, there are instances when following all the rules just isn't that important, to put quite frankly.

I'm a totally different golfer now. I keep score, play for HCP, and play by the rules. All of them. But, looking back at my beginnings in the sport, I wouldn't have done anything different.

 

[Harry Longshanks]

Last year in our club championship a poor fellow in our group had to take seven shots off the tee. He'd hit his tee shot, then a provisional, we'd go look for the ball(s), couldn't find them, and he'd have to go back to the tee. We did this seven times. By the time the fellow finally hit one in play there were four groups waiting to tee off on that hole. It backed everything up. That's okay, as this was a tournament, but I can imagine what would happen if this happened on a casual weekend round of golf (the courses around here are packed): people would be having fits. If the provisional can't be found, then drop one where the ball went OB and hit your fourth shot.

Sometimes common sense has to prevail.

During a casual round, common sense should have prevailed several shots earlier. It's called ESC (Equitable Stroke Control). The player should have known what his was, known when he couldn't shoot better than that number for the hole, recorded his max score and moved on.

I have no problem with people who want to go out and hit a ball around. If they want to fluff their lies, fine. Gimmes? Fine. Winter rules when handicap season is closed? Go for it.

But don't compare your "score" or handicap to mine unless you are acknowledging in the same sentence that you didn't play by the rules so it's not a fair comparison. And if you aren't scoring by the rules, especially ESC, don't you dare enter a net score tournament. That's downright cheating.

 

[Chesnutt]

I have a simple rule for myself. If I am not following the rules of golf, to the best of my knowledge, I don't have a score card in my pocket. On those days I'm just out hitting some balls with friends.

 

[dynarider]

This post will probably draw the rage of the rules nazis but oh well. I would be willing to bet a large portion of the folks here do not play by every single rule no matter what is claimed otherwise.

To claim you don't play by every rule will draw criticism from those who for some reason think they are better or "real golfers".

In the end though who cares? if you are just out having fu, drinking a few beers, don't give a crap about the score, don't enter tournaments, etc...what's the big deal????? Nobody is being harmed if someone plays 2 balls or takes 5 mulligans.

 

[Diane]

I have a simple rule for myself. If I am not following the rules of golf, to the best of my knowledge, I don't have a score card in my pocket. On those days I'm just out hitting some balls with friends.

Chesnutt - I love that rule. I wish more people would follow it. :clapp:

 

[provisional]

One thing every golfer who plays the game (for what ever reason) should do is play a round of golf every so often, while staying with in the letter of the rules. Doing this will give the golfer a more thorough appreciation of the game, and just how challenging it really is. If not the entire 18 hoes, then maybe a stretch 6 holes might suffice. It is also a good way to learn, and interpret the rules of the game for future use. Learn how to use the rules to the golfer's advantage.

For some the game is just too hard, or no fun to play strictly by the rules. Those golfers are just not going to play the game that way. That is not a bad thing as far as I am concerned, and I don't mind playing along side some one who plays this way.

 

[Diane]

For some the game is just too hard, or no fun to play strictly by the rules. Those golfers are just not going to play the game that way. That is not a bad thing as far as I am concerned, and I don't mind playing along side some one who plays this way.

That brings up an interesting point though Prov. I play by the rules and so do my friends. That means that we tend to get into a routine so to speak - we know what to expect and while we don't mind playing with people who don't follow the rules, it does throw off the routine a bit. We will start walking when the person is teeing up to hit a mulligan or we will expect the person to pull the pin, putt out, etc.

 

[Fourputt]

This post will probably draw the rage of the rules nazis but oh well. I would be willing to bet a large portion of the folks here do not play by every single rule no matter what is claimed otherwise.

To claim you don't play by every rule will draw criticism from those who for some reason think they are better or "real golfers".

In the end though who cares? if you are just out having fu, drinking a few beers, don't give a crap about the score, don't enter tournaments, etc...what's the big deal????? Nobody is being harmed if someone plays 2 balls or takes 5 mulligans.

Except for that fourball waiting on the tee behind you. Cursing you for all the screwing around.

That brings up an interesting point though Prov. I play by the rules and so do my friends. That means that we tend to get into a routine so to speak - we know what to expect and while we don't mind playing with people who don't follow the rules, it does throw off the routine a bit. We will start walking when the person is teeing up to hit a mulligan or we will expect the person to pull the pin, putt out, etc.

Also a good point. I've done the same thing, headed down the fairway while the guy who just hit a 75 yard wormburner is teeing up his mulligan. Unlike what some of you probably believe, I hit some horrible shots on the course... always have and probably always will. I have the 75 yard wormburner lurking in the bag to piss me off at the worse possible moment. I still don't hit mulligans, and if there is one rules peeve of mine that's it. You take what your stroke gave you... fluff it if you must, :confused2: but play one ball. All mulligans do is slow down the whole course.