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Complete "Complete Relief"?

JohnnyO3478

JohnnyO3478

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Rule 16 offers free relief if an abnormal course condition interferes with your intended area of stance or your swing path. In one case that seems to come up from time to time on my home course the ball comes to rest next to (touching) the cart path on one particular hole, on the side that is nearest the out of bounds fence (actual white fence - noted on the scorecard as the OB marker). I doctored up the image from the USGA site to show the situation:

1712673130985.png

If my ball is butt up against the concrete cart path (orange arrow) - I obviously do not want to take a chance at breaking my club while hitting the ball. At the same time - I do not mind standing on the cart path while taking the swing - and if the ball was as shown in the USGA example (B2 - off he path a bit) I would opt to play as it lies. Taking complete relief for both stance AND swing path puts me too close to the fence to make an optimal swing - and may put P2 OB. Since I have determined that the path is not interfering with my stance can I set the reference point (P2) closer to the spot marked B2 and thereby take complete relief from the cart path for my swing - and satisfy the rule - or do I have to take complete relief from both stance and swing path - even though my stance is not affected?
 
I think this is a weird one and I remember that the rule says the player has to take complete relief. If you cannot take complete relief then you can't take the free drop. If you then feel you don't want to hit the shot because of the cart path then it is unplayable and you take a stroke penalty and get 2 club lengths to get to the other side of the cart path. It sucks that OB is right there but as you know you have to drop in the general area.

That is my understanding and I would only bring that up in an actual competitive round. In a fun round or a handicapped round I wouldn't think anything of taking a drop from the other side of the cart path.
 
But if the rule states "Complete Relief". then that would also imply that you shouldn't have to drop into OB. Without the "No closer to the hole" bit, "nearest complete relief" means that left side is fine. I think... maybe... kinda.

Of course, most casual guys would just drop in a spot that's away from trees, path, bushes or any trouble whatsoever...
 
RayG said:
But if the rule states "Complete Relief". then that would also imply that you shouldn't have to drop into OB. Without the "No closer to the hole" bit, "nearest complete relief" means that left side is fine. I think... maybe... kinda.

Of course, most casual guys would just drop in a spot that's away from trees, path, bushes or any trouble whatsoever...
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The rule provides complete relief from the abnormal course condition. It does not provide relief from out of bounds or any kind of unplayable lie. My options in this scenario are to either play it as it lies, go back and hit from the spot I just hit from - or take the relief provided in the rule. I'm just not sure if I have to pick a reference point that relieves me from both of the conditions that afford relief - when only one condition bothers me.
 
JohnnyO3478 said:
The rule provides complete relief from the abnormal course condition. It does not provide relief from out of bounds or any kind of unplayable lie. My options in this scenario are to either play it as it lies, go back and hit from the spot I just hit from - or take the relief provided in the rule. I'm just not sure if I have to pick a reference point that relieves me from both of the conditions that afford relief - when only one condition bothers me.
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Ah- okay.. I see what you're saying. But- you could take an 'unplayable' which allows 3 choices. re-hit from last position, a drop along the line of play, no closer to the hole (so if the path diverges towards the left in the illustration, there might be room to get complete relief along that line on the right side of path) OR- and this is the kicker, you get a drop within TWO club lengths (no closer to hole), which might get you on the opposite side of the path. But these are 1 stroke penalties, not a free drop...
 
RayG said:
Ah- okay.. I see what you're saying. But- you could take an 'unplayable' which allows 3 choices. re-hit from last position, a drop along the line of play, no closer to the hole (so if the path diverges towards the left in the illustration, there might be room to get complete relief along that line on the right side of path) OR- and this is the kicker, you get a drop within TWO club lengths (no closer to hole), which might get you on the opposite side of the path. But these are 1 stroke penalties, not a free drop...
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Yeah - this thread is only about the free relief from abnormal course conditions - Rule 16.

But just so you know - this hole in particular has a pretty dead straight OB line down the right hand side:

1712688052296.png
 
Right... The other option is find a course with no OB or abnormal conditions...
 
RayG said:
Right... The other option is find a course with no OB or abnormal conditions...
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I usually do no have much trouble on this hole - as my normal miss is to the left. It's hole number 3 and I've been known to drive the green. Unfortunately it would be the Green for the 1st hole .......
 
I think the crux of the matter here is 'puts me too close to the fence to make an optimal swing'. If there is room to drop with full relief from the cart path, to the right of he path and within the general area (not out of bounds), that is where you must drop. Whether or not there is room for an optimal swing after the drop makes no difference.

If there isn't enough room to make a drop taking full relief the to the right of the path, the closest point of relief is to the left of the cart path.

The rules do not force you to take relief, but if you opt to take relief your must take complete relief for both stance and swing.
 
gfb107 said:
I think the crux of the matter here is 'puts me too close to the fence to make an optimal swing'. If there is room to drop with full relief from the cart path, to the right of he path and within the general area (not out of bounds), that is where you must drop. Whether or not there is room for an optimal swing after the drop makes no difference.

If there isn't enough room to make a drop taking full relief the to the right of the path, the closest point of relief is to the left of the cart path.

The rules do not force you to take relief, but if you opt to take relief your must take complete relief for both stance and swing.
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Do you have a reference for what you say in that last sentence? That's basically what I am looking for. I do not think the rule is crystal clear on that point. I don't need relief for both stance and swing path - just swing path. I might even just prefer the nice level concrete. I just don't want to hit the concrete with my club.
 
I'm no rules expert, but i would think that in the case the OB line is so close to the cart path that you can't take relief from standing on the path on that side that you're nearest point of complete relief would be the other side of the cart path and play it like P1
 
If its OB, it can't be relief, so the nearest point would be somewhere in bounds, or the left side of the path.
 
Now, I'm not sure how the USGA would rule on this, but at my last course, a fence installed by a homeowner was not part of the course, even if on the OB line. Say you're right handed, ball is in bounds, but a fence for a backyard would prevent you from addressing the ball. We were told to take free relief from the fence as it wasn't part of the course as designed.
 
Greg Kulbick said:
Now, I'm not sure how the USGA would rule on this, but at my last course, a fence installed by a homeowner was not part of the course, even if on the OB line. Say you're right handed, ball is in bounds, but a fence for a backyard would prevent you from addressing the ball. We were told to take free relief from the fence as it wasn't part of the course as designed.
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That is an interesting situation. I think the Rules of Golf would not allow relief from an immoveable obstruction that is wholly located out of bounds.

Under Rule 16.1 Abnormal Course Conditions (Including Immovable Obstructions), the abnormal course condition must be on the course (not out of bounds).

I suspect that the course felt it was unfair to players to have to deal with immoveable obstructions erected by homeowners after the course was built. Their solution was a Local Rule allowing free relief from immoveable obstructions (fences) close to the course.
 
Slowmo said:
I'm no rules expert, but i would think that in the case the OB line is so close to the cart path that you can't take relief from standing on the path on that side that you're nearest point of complete relief would be the other side of the cart path and play it like P1
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I do not think that is the case - but I'd welcome being proved incorrect on that point if you can find a reference to support it.
 
Greg Kulbick said:
Now, I'm not sure how the USGA would rule on this, but at my last course, a fence installed by a homeowner was not part of the course, even if on the OB line. Say you're right handed, ball is in bounds, but a fence for a backyard would prevent you from addressing the ball. We were told to take free relief from the fence as it wasn't part of the course as designed.
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This fence has been installed by the course and is listed on the scorecard as the OB boundary for this hole.
 
bkuehn1952 said:
That is an interesting situation. I think the Rules of Golf would not allow relief from an immoveable obstruction that is wholly located out of bounds.

Under Rule 16.1 Abnormal Course Conditions (Including Immovable Obstructions), the abnormal course condition must be on the course (not out of bounds).

I suspect that the course felt it was unfair to players to have to deal with immoveable obstructions erected by homeowners after the course was built. Their solution was a Local Rule allowing free relief from immoveable obstructions (fences) close to the course.
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The fence is not the object of contention here. I am talking about the cart path as an ACC. This fence has been installed by the golf course and is clearly marked on the scorecard as the OB boundary for this hole. There are no homes near this hole.
 
JohnnyO3478 said:
The fence is not the object of contention here. I am talking about the cart path as an ACC. This fence has been installed by the golf course and is clearly marked on the scorecard as the OB boundary for this hole. There are no homes near this hole.
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Yes, I understand that. I may have been off topic as my response was directed at @Greg Kulbick’s comment about his course and the rule allowing relief from a privately owned fence located O.B.
 
bkuehn1952 said:
Yes, I understand that. I may have been off topic as my response was directed at @Greg Kulbick’s comment about his course and the rule allowing relief from a privately owned fence located O.B.
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Ah.

 
Interesting thread. I'm not sure if we have a similar 'local rule' providing swing relief from our low decorative fences or not. They form the boundaries for the few back 9 holes that wind through neighborhoods.
 
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JohnnyO3478 said:
The rule provides complete relief from the abnormal course condition. It does not provide relief from out of bounds or any kind of unplayable lie. My options in this scenario are to either play it as it lies, go back and hit from the spot I just hit from - or take the relief provided in the rule. I'm just not sure if I have to pick a reference point that relieves me from both of the conditions that afford relief - when only one condition bothers me.
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If by taking complete relief from the cart path you put yourself in a position where the boundary fence interferes with your stance or swing, that's just bad luck. There is no relief. This is why you should always carefully consider where your relief will be before picking up your ball.

Now, the situation can come up where the OB line or fence is so close to the cart path, there is no way to take complete relief without the ball being out of bounds. If that were the case, you would be allowed to take relief on the other side of the path.

In the situation you describe, your options would be to play the ball as it lies, take stroke and distance and play from where you hit your last shot, or take an unplayable lie. If you choose the latter, the reference point is where the ball lay. Let's say you take two club lengths which does not get you across the path. In a by-the-book situation such as a tournament, you must take your drop and when the ball is properly at rest within the relief area on the path, then you would be able to proceed with taking relief from the path if available. The danger of course is the ball could roll to where the nearest point of relief is on the side with the OB fence. For that reason, unless you were really sure the ball was going to roll away from the fence side of the path, your best option may be to play it as it lies.

In a casual round, I'd dispense with all the two-drop stuff, drop it to the other side of the path and take a stroke unless the guys you're playing with are huge sticklers.
 
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Complete “complete relief”

I’ve been kicked out of massage places for even hinting at this.
 
bkuehn1952 said:
That is an interesting situation. I think the Rules of Golf would not allow relief from an immoveable obstruction that is wholly located out of bounds.

Under Rule 16.1 Abnormal Course Conditions (Including Immovable Obstructions), the abnormal course condition must be on the course (not out of bounds).

I suspect that the course felt it was unfair to players to have to deal with immoveable obstructions erected by homeowners after the course was built. Their solution was a Local Rule allowing free relief from immoveable obstructions (fences) close to the course.
Click to expand...

There would typically be no relief from an object that is out-of-bounds. A club can adopt a model local rule in certain instances such as to provide relief from an electrified fence or an environmentally sensitive area where the player's ball may be in-bounds but they have to stand out-of-bounds to play their shot. However, I have a hard time imagining any situation when relief would be granted for a traditional fence which lies out-of-bounds.
 
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