This post in the Coronavirus thread got some of us going. Instead of hyjacking that thread we will start a fresh one here for this topic
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Common Core
GimmeAnother1
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I’ll take the latter.
#idonthavetimetolearnnewthings
#idonthavetimetolearnnewthings
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My fiance brought her nephew over so I could help him with math a couple of months ago before all this happened. He was trying to explain this to me since I didn't want to be explaining things in a way that would get him in trouble if he had to show work. He said their teacher allows them to do it either way. What the hell is the point of common core then? I mean I get how it works but why the change? As long as the kid knows what's going on, do whatever way they feel comfortable but I would choose the old way 10/10.
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So, I've been a math nerd since way back. I finished all my math courses for my first degree in Electronics Engineering when I was still in high school. I have no problem understanding the Common Core methodologies. But I have yet to understand or get anyone else to answer this one three letter question. Why?
I would also note, math scores on the standardized tests are down, not up since Common Core has been implemented.
From the 2019 National Assessment of Education Progress.
"The 2019 National Assessment of Education Progress, also called NAEP or the Nation's Report Card, was administered to more than 600,000 students enrolled in public schools and Catholic schools from every state and Washington, D.C...
Most concerning, she said, was that compared to 2017, the scores of lower performing students declined in three of the four grade-subject combinations and those drops are what accounted for the overall drop in average scores.
"The distributions are pulling apart, with the bottom dropping faster," Carr said. "It's not clear what's happening here, but it is clear and it's consistent."
"The fact that students who need to make the most academic progress are instead making no progress or are falling further behind is extremely troubling," Tonya Matthews, vice chairwoman of the National Assessment Governing Board, which oversees NAEP, said in a statement. "We need to see all students make progress."
Carr said the score drops cannot be traced to any one specific student subgroup, as almost all of them logged declines. For example, black, Hispanic, Native American and white students in fourth and eighth grades scored lower in reading in 2019 compared to 2017.
"They are generally all declining," she said. "So we can't say it's due to changes and shifts in the populations."
I would also note, math scores on the standardized tests are down, not up since Common Core has been implemented.
From the 2019 National Assessment of Education Progress.
"The 2019 National Assessment of Education Progress, also called NAEP or the Nation's Report Card, was administered to more than 600,000 students enrolled in public schools and Catholic schools from every state and Washington, D.C...
Most concerning, she said, was that compared to 2017, the scores of lower performing students declined in three of the four grade-subject combinations and those drops are what accounted for the overall drop in average scores.
"The distributions are pulling apart, with the bottom dropping faster," Carr said. "It's not clear what's happening here, but it is clear and it's consistent."
"The fact that students who need to make the most academic progress are instead making no progress or are falling further behind is extremely troubling," Tonya Matthews, vice chairwoman of the National Assessment Governing Board, which oversees NAEP, said in a statement. "We need to see all students make progress."
Carr said the score drops cannot be traced to any one specific student subgroup, as almost all of them logged declines. For example, black, Hispanic, Native American and white students in fourth and eighth grades scored lower in reading in 2019 compared to 2017.
"They are generally all declining," she said. "So we can't say it's due to changes and shifts in the populations."
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I know we have many teachers here on THP.
I understand the concepts that picture “new math” as crazy and when you look at them you say WTF and why would you do 15 steps when this can be done in 3.
The reason isn’t to make math harder or confuse children. It’s to help them understand the why and how. Conceptual learning
You can just accept 2+2 = 4 or you could take 4 pennies. Break them out into two groups. Say this is one penny. This here is another 1 penny. If you put these in the same group they become 2 pennies. Hey let’s do that all again in another box group. Then let’s see what happens when we take these groups together to make one group altogether.
This is an over-exaggeration of a very similar concept. Teach the why and how, you teach the way the student understands. Memorizing facts doesn’t teach understanding for the next building blocks. Understanding fully the how allows the student to build on the next lesson and the next. Conceptual learning be it base 10, base 8, or one of the other methods will help build a better understanding and a much better foundation of basic math that will help students as they progress throughout their schooling.
It really isn’t a new math. Math is math. And math is the most beautiful language there is.
I understand the concepts that picture “new math” as crazy and when you look at them you say WTF and why would you do 15 steps when this can be done in 3.
The reason isn’t to make math harder or confuse children. It’s to help them understand the why and how. Conceptual learning
You can just accept 2+2 = 4 or you could take 4 pennies. Break them out into two groups. Say this is one penny. This here is another 1 penny. If you put these in the same group they become 2 pennies. Hey let’s do that all again in another box group. Then let’s see what happens when we take these groups together to make one group altogether.
This is an over-exaggeration of a very similar concept. Teach the why and how, you teach the way the student understands. Memorizing facts doesn’t teach understanding for the next building blocks. Understanding fully the how allows the student to build on the next lesson and the next. Conceptual learning be it base 10, base 8, or one of the other methods will help build a better understanding and a much better foundation of basic math that will help students as they progress throughout their schooling.
It really isn’t a new math. Math is math. And math is the most beautiful language there is.
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First, the Common Core explanation, from a middle or high school teacher I asked about it. I kinda challenged her about CC because the old way works...as long as you know the method for a type of math problem the problem is easy. She explained the point of CC is to give kids multiple methods because the old school method doesn’t make sense to everybody.
That said I still hate it. Most recently my 7th grade daughter had probabilities homework. I had the answers and explained the old school method in about 40 seconds. The old school method was faster, easier and better than any of the 3 new CC methods. She used the old method to get the right answer then used it to cross check her answers using the 3 new methods.
That said I still hate it. Most recently my 7th grade daughter had probabilities homework. I had the answers and explained the old school method in about 40 seconds. The old school method was faster, easier and better than any of the 3 new CC methods. She used the old method to get the right answer then used it to cross check her answers using the 3 new methods.
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See this is one of the big problems I have with Common Core math.
Yes, it's obvious they are using these methods as alternate ways to teach the principles behind the math. The problem is that once the principles are understood, they never switch over to methods that are most efficient. Thus the students' practice time takes far longer, slowing their practice, mastery and movement to the next step in their mathematics education.
As I mentioned earlier, my first degree was in Electronics Engineering. We spent a fair amount of class time exploring equations that describe principles of electronics that spanned chalk or whiteboards that ran across boards in the classroom. Those sessions gave us an understanding of the principals behind the equations we actually used. Those equations had a fraction of the terms on any line on those whiteboards and took a fraction of the time to use. We also understood why those abbreviated equations worked, because we worked out the math. But we only had to do that once.
At the end of the day learning is about understanding, becoming proficient so you can get things done, then moving on to the next building block and repeating.
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I think you’ve summarized everything quite nicely here, and I completely agree.
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What’s lost is if you use teach your kids the old method, and they use it to get their answer, most teachers will not accept the answer.
I’ve had many fights with our math department over this.
I’ve had many fights with our math department over this.
My wife and I had that fight when our kids were in elementary school. My daughter herself would call out the teacher and ask, Miss (****), I have the same answer you do, why do you say my answer is incorrect? The teacher could never provide her with an answer.
No disrespect to the teachers, in fact, I have the utmost respect for ALL of you, but I feel like the "Common Core" method hinders learning and handcuffs teachers from actually teaching all students.
Just be thankful that your children didn't have to endure "Everyday Math"
that's a topic for a different conversation …...(OK …. I'll step down off my soapbox)
- Staff
- #14
Common Core is yet another example of people without a clue in one area, coming up with a plan for people in all the areas. It’s what always happens with education and why it’s been hamstrung the past 20 years.
My hope is this pandemic does two things, 1) it shows parents how hard teachers actually work and that education their precious young ones is anything but a cake walk, and 2) Show the world that when teachers are allowed to just teach without fear of tests and being judged as good or bad based on how the kids score on tests.
Looking at this example I understand the methodology. Its actually pretty similar to how I do mental math, but kids really shouldn't be punished for doing things the old way.
One of the ideas in common core is that kids should understand what's going on instead of memorizing a procedure. Unfortunately, that ends up being counter to how a lot of teachers grade with show your work and ensuring you are using the "correct" procedure.
One of the ideas in common core is that kids should understand what's going on instead of memorizing a procedure. Unfortunately, that ends up being counter to how a lot of teachers grade with show your work and ensuring you are using the "correct" procedure.
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- #17
Same here! No kids so I had no idea this crazy way of teaching was happening. I have heard all the complaints about common core, but I really didn't know what it was all about since I don't have kids. That's such a ridiculous, long and unnecessary way to get to an answer.
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- #18
No doubt. It is funny, my wife has been on constant conference calls for work and whenever she asks her coworkers how they are doing there has been a constant theme, "Things are good, just trying to figure out this common core stuff to teach my kid"
links_slayer
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no kids here so i'm not even sure if i'm allowed to have an opinion. but both of my parents are teachers so....
different isn't always better, but better is always different.
different isn't always better, but better is always different.
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First, I love the comments in Red - Such "Classic" statements
It honestly took a minute to figure out the CC method, What are they trying to do?
Then after studying it, I understood it.
And while I would agree the "Old Method" so much easier, I can see the CC as a way to explain how the number was reached.
The issue with CC is that I have to ask what the practical application in the work environment is. We do "Millions" of calculations in our head everyday to solve work issues and I'd be concerned that using only CC method would hinder someone.
It honestly took a minute to figure out the CC method, What are they trying to do?
Then after studying it, I understood it.
And while I would agree the "Old Method" so much easier, I can see the CC as a way to explain how the number was reached.
The issue with CC is that I have to ask what the practical application in the work environment is. We do "Millions" of calculations in our head everyday to solve work issues and I'd be concerned that using only CC method would hinder someone.
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Love it.
If I have to do math in my head, I naturally start grouping things together. I guess that's kind of like Common Core? I have no idea.
I learned it the old fashioned way like everybody else and see no issue with it.
I learned it the old fashioned way like everybody else and see no issue with it.
Yepp in your head a lot of people break the problem into parts and that is what the common core method is doing. It breaks the down the problem into all of the intermediary steps. The traditional method is a procedure and just combines some stuff together and requires remembering a rule.
While making fun of common core is basically a meme at this point, I can at least see why this method is taught.
I have no problem with multiple methods being taught, but give the student latitude to decide which method is best for them.
In the real world (workforce), time is money. Once all methods are taught the focus should be on the most efficient ways to reach a correct answer.
In the real world (workforce), time is money. Once all methods are taught the focus should be on the most efficient ways to reach a correct answer.