What Is A Cheater?

[Smallville]

Except for that fourball waiting on the tee behind you. Cursing you for all the screwing around.

. . .You take what your stroke gave you... fluff it if you must, :confused2: but play one ball. All mulligans do is slow down the whole course.

As long as you're keeping up or not holding anyone up, I think people can hit as many balls as they want or take as much time as they want. If it's open ahead of you and a group is behind you, keep moving. If a group is pushing behind you and there's no one behind them, let them through.

Worse than the mulligans themselves slowing down the whole course, is those who play the wrong tees. That in my view slows down the course more than the mulligans, because playing the wrong tees leads to mulligans. At the least, more time searching for balls and the extra shots involved trying to get it to the fairway.

 

[Diane]

As long as you're keeping up or not holding anyone up, I think people can hit as many balls as they want or take as much time as they want. If it's open ahead of you and a group is behind you, keep moving. If a group is pushing behind you and there's no one behind them, let them through.

Smallie - Forget the people behind you - That one guy hitting mulligans or two balls may be slowing up the rest of the group. The foursome becomes a fivesome and I for one, don't like playing with a fivesome.

 

[Smallville]

I'm sure the people within the group can police their mulligan hitting guy. Or they might all be hitting them. Are they playing from the tips? It's easier to get on the people in your group than to get on people in other groups. Even if you are thrown together.

Besides, it's usually just me and my wife in a group, with an occasional dash of or change to MO and/or Jeff.

 

[Diane]

I'm sure the people within the group can police their mulligan hitting guy. Or they might all be hitting them. Are they playing from the tips? It's easier to get on the people in your group than to get on people in other groups. Even if you are thrown together.

Besides, it's usually just me and my wife in a group, with an occasional dash of or change to MO and/or Jeff.

I think it's different here - there are fewer public courses with more people playing. It's rare that you can go out as a twosome on a public course.

 

[Smallville]

They'll pair up if they can, but I always make tee times for two. Sometimes we play with new people, sometimes not. Going out as two can slow things up for yourselves if you aren't able to get one of the first few tee times of the day though because it seems the fastest players want the earliest times.

 

[soxngolf]

I'm a totally different golfer now. I keep score, play for HCP, and play by the rules. All of them. But, looking back at my beginnings in the sport, I wouldn't have done anything different.

I agree with you here. I play with a lot of people who are either just starting out golfing or aren't that serious about it, to the point that they don't even bother keeping score. For those players, and I remember being that beginning golfer, playing strictly by the rules can just ruin a round completely for you. If you are frustrated with every round you aren't going to be having any fun and won't continue golfing. What is the big deal for those players to just put the ball in the fairway so that they can have a better lie instead of hitting 3 shots to get out of the rough. And that will speed up play.
Now that I have been playing for a while and am recording my scores I would just feel so guilty about any sort of breaking of the rules. That being said, like someone mentioned earlier, the rules of golf are so unbelievably crazy now, that I am not always 100% sure of the ruling, but do what I think is best if no one I am playing with can help me out. This is also why I like playing with people who are strict with the rules, it helps me become better with them as well.

Worse than the mulligans themselves slowing down the whole course, is those who play the wrong tees. That in my view slows down the course more than the mulligans, because playing the wrong tees leads to mulligans. At the least, more time searching for balls and the extra shots involved trying to get it to the fairway.

Don't even get me started on this, absolutely one of my pet peeves.

 

[JPsuff]

As long as you're keeping up or not holding anyone up, I think people can hit as many balls as they want or take as much time as they want. If it's open ahead of you and a group is behind you, keep moving. If a group is pushing behind you and there's no one behind them, let them through.

This I agree with 100%.

I'm not a fan of mulligans or "do overs", but I accept the fact that many people are and as long as they're not violating the "Prime Directive", I don't care.

Worse than the mulligans themselves slowing down the whole course, is those who play the wrong tees. That in my view slows down the course more than the mulligans, because playing the wrong tees leads to mulligans. At the least, more time searching for balls and the extra shots involved trying to get it to the fairway.

I get what you're saying here, but there are more than enough people playing from the "Regulation Tees" who can barely manage a game, so where do I go to complain about THEM?

As for me, I like a course with balance. But there are times when having to really work for a score (long approach irons on many holes) is challenging enough to be fun and that's where the "Back Tees" come in. I don't care for the shorter courses (+/- 6,300) because they're basically "Bomb & Gouge" layouts and they really don't hold my interest. They seem at times to be sort of "Pitch & Putt's" on steroids.

I like a course that allows me to go through my whole bag especially by being forced to use long irons from places other than the tees of long par 3's, but to also have enough shortish holes to allow for a chance to make up for any mistakes made elsewhere.
I also like challenging par 3's. By "challenging" I mean with forced carries over water or tight greenside bunkering. But just as with the rest of the course, there also needs to be one or two par 3's that are not "gimme's" but are short and simple enough to present a good "get back a stroke" opportunity.

The only time I actually prefer a long and tough 7,000 yd.-plus course is when I am playing and practicing enough so that my game is at least 90% "there". Otherwise they become more of a chore than a good time.

So the point here is that I didn't always play this way so I had to make the step to the longer tees at some point. When I did, I'm sure I made my share of mistakes and I'm sure there were more than a few raised eyebrows from people wondering why I was playing from "the wrong tees".

But to expand my game and to get better overall, playing from longer tees was part of the deal just as it would be for anyone so inclined. How else is someone supposed to broaden their horizons without taking that step?

In truth, in all the years I've been playing, I think it's fair to say that most of the traffic jams on most golf courses are the result of regular folks playing from regular tees. The few people who play from tees that are truly beyond their capacity to handle are hardly ever the reason for slow play across the board.


-JP

 

[bdlorton]

The very first time I played a "nice" course was a nightmare. I hit my drive in the bunker and well, grounded my club. The guy we were paired with ask me what I put down for my score. He went bullistic when I did not add a penalty stroke. He reminded me of my "sins" for the next 3 holes and effectively managed to ruin the entire day. Point being, I guess you have to know the audience and be up front with new people from the get-go how things will be played. Our regular group is very loose with the rules...gimmee's, mulligans, games within the game etc. We always finish under 4 hours, usually laughing hysterically.

 

[TwoSolitudes]

The very first time I played a "nice" course was a nightmare. I hit my drive in the bunker and well, grounded my club. The guy we were paired with ask me what I put down for my score. He went bullistic when I did not add a penalty stroke. He reminded me of my "sins" for the next 3 holes and effectively managed to ruin the entire day. Point being, I guess you have to know the audience and be up front with new people from the get-go how things will be played. Our regular group is very loose with the rules...gimmee's, mulligans, games within the game etc. We always finish under 4 hours, usually laughing hysterically.

Your regular group sounds a lot more fun!

 

[dynarider]

Except for that fourball waiting on the tee behind you. Cursing you for all the screwing around.

Who claimed anything about playing mulligans while others are waiting???????

As long as you're keeping up or not holding anyone up, I think people can hit as many balls as they want or take as much time as they want. If it's open ahead of you and a group is behind you, keep moving. If a group is pushing behind you and there's no one behind them, let them through.

Worse than the mulligans themselves slowing down the whole course, is those who play the wrong tees. That in my view slows down the course more than the mulligans, because playing the wrong tees leads to mulligans. At the least, more time searching for balls and the extra shots involved trying to get it to the fairway.

Dead on correct Smallie. I see far too many folks who suck worse than I do at this game playing from tee's of 6700+ yds. makes the game far too difficult for those of us with a lack of the long ball. I typically try to play from tee's which put me in the 6,000-6,300 range. Anything longer than that & I struggle.

I think it's different here - there are fewer public courses with more people playing. It's rare that you can go out as a twosome on a public course.

Around here there is almost no course I can't go out as a single if I want. We have a lot of courses & sure some get pretty busy, I just avoid those on weekends.

The very first time I played a "nice" course was a nightmare. I hit my drive in the bunker and well, grounded my club. The guy we were paired with ask me what I put down for my score. He went bullistic when I did not add a penalty stroke. He reminded me of my "sins" for the next 3 holes and effectively managed to ruin the entire day. Point being, I guess you have to know the audience and be up front with new people from the get-go how things will be played. Our regular group is very loose with the rules...gimmee's, mulligans, games within the game etc. We always finish under 4 hours, usually laughing hysterically.

I would have bid adieu to Mr Ballistic & jumped up a hole if possible.

Your regular group sounds a lot more fun!

Agreed, having fun is the objective. For those who are pretty good at the game it's easy to play by the rules & still have fun. For those who are still for whatever reason struggling with the game, following a lot of the rules leads to mega frustration.

 

[provisional]

I have run into that guy a few times myself. No so much about rule issues, but the Mr. IKE (I Know Everything) who wants to impress some one, and/or himself. I will put up with it for about 2 holes max, and then we have a chat, and maybe part ways.

The very first time I played a "nice" course was a nightmare. I hit my drive in the bunker and well, grounded my club. The guy we were paired with ask me what I put down for my score. He went bullistic when I did not add a penalty stroke. He reminded me of my "sins" for the next 3 holes and effectively managed to ruin the entire day. Point being, I guess you have to know the audience and be up front with new people from the get-go how things will be played. Our regular group is very loose with the rules...gimmee's, mulligans, games within the game etc. We always finish under 4 hours, usually laughing hysterically.

 

[Diane]

I don't understand why most people take mulligans. Most of the time, the person hits the same bad shot twice in a row. Why torture yourself that way.

 

[MO_Hacker]

I don't understand why most people take mulligans. Most of the time, the person hits the same bad shot twice in a row. Why torture yourself that way.

That's the way I look at it too, no reason to Maul-it-again.

 

[dynarider]

I don't understand why most people take mulligans.

Most??? But I thought MOST followed the rules??????:confused2:

 

[Diane]

Most??? But I thought MOST followed the rules??????:confused2:

Sorry - I should have said I don't understand why most of the people who take mulligans, take them.

 

[C-Tech]

Worse than the mulligans themselves slowing down the whole course, is those who play the wrong tees. That in my view slows down the course more than the mulligans, because playing the wrong tees leads to mulligans. At the least, more time searching for balls and the extra shots involved trying to get it to the fairway.

OMG! Yesterday, a customer and I got behind a group of guys who were playing off the back tees. Now this is an old course and back tees means only around 6200 yards, so its not a monster. Three of them spent most of their time hitting their second shots from less than 100 yards off the tee, usually from an adjacent fairway. The fourth guy was good, he could hit it 180 down the fairway, but 40 yards left or right of center. There was a lot of looking for balls, posing as professionals by checking their 3rd putts from two sides, etc.

Made for a fun round.

 

[NikeGolf]

OMG! Yesterday, a customer and I got behind a group of guys who were playing off the back tees. Now this is an old course and back tees means only around 6200 yards, so its not a monster. Three of them spent most of their time hitting their second shots from less than 100 yards off the tee, usually from an adjacent fairway. The fourth guy was good, he could hit it 180 down the fairway, but 40 yards left or right of center. There was a lot of looking for balls, posing as professionals by checking their 3rd putts from two sides, etc.

Made for a fun round.

And they weren't letting you play through?

If not, I would definitely have said something. If they're not going to use common sense, then I'll talk some into them.

 

[JPsuff]

OMG! Yesterday, a customer and I got behind a group of guys who were playing off the back tees. Now this is an old course and back tees means only around 6200 yards, so its not a monster. Three of them spent most of their time hitting their second shots from less than 100 yards off the tee, usually from an adjacent fairway. The fourth guy was good, he could hit it 180 down the fairway, but 40 yards left or right of center. There was a lot of looking for balls, posing as professionals by checking their 3rd putts from two sides, etc.

Made for a fun round.

But those guys just sucked.

And they would have sucked just as much if they played from the regulation tees or even the ladies tees. That was the point I was trying to make earlier; what do I do about the guys who play the "correct" tees but just suck so much that they'd slow things down from ANY set of tees?

You know, some people are simply not meant to play this game. And I don't care what kind of Super Game Improvement clubs they have, how many "fittings" they get, what kind of shafts they use, what tees they play from or how many lessons they take. None of that will help them because they're simply not golfers, they never will be and that's that.

Let them try bowling or something but just get them the **** off the golf course!


-JP

 

[NikeGolf]

But those guys just sucked.

And they would have sucked just as much if they played from the regulation tees or even the ladies tees. That was the point I was trying to make earlier; what do I do about the guys who play the "correct" tees but just suck so much that they'd slow things down from ANY set of tees?

You know, some people are simply not meant to play this game. And I don't care what kind of Super Game Improvement clubs they have, how many "fittings" they get, what kind of shafts they use, what tees they play from or how many lessons they take. None of that will help them because they're simply not golfers, they never will be and that's that.

Let them try bowling or something but just get them the **** off the golf course!


-JP

Obviously, you know that's not the politically correct thing to say, but I agree w/ you 100%.

I believe you can say that about most other sports. Some are just born w/ the natural ability to play and do certain things better than other people. It's not really a knock on anyone, it's just the way it is.

I used to argue that all the time w/ my high school biology teacher. He said there is nothing in the human make-up (genes, chromosones, etc) that dictates how good we will be at something, like athletics.

Well, going back to my grade school days in PE class I remember kids who couldn't jump rope, couldn't run that well, couldn't catch a ball, and were always sitting on the side during a game of dodgeball. You're telling me there aren't born differences in people's athletic ability?

Let's face it, people AREN'T created equal.

 

[Diane]

But those guys just sucked.

And they would have sucked just as much if they played from the regulation tees or even the ladies tees. That was the point I was trying to make earlier; what do I do about the guys who play the "correct" tees but just suck so much that they'd slow things down from ANY set of tees?

You know, some people are simply not meant to play this game. And I don't care what kind of Super Game Improvement clubs they have, how many "fittings" they get, what kind of shafts they use, what tees they play from or how many lessons they take. None of that will help them because they're simply not golfers, they never will be and that's that.

Let them try bowling or something but just get them the **** off the golf course!


-JP

JP - I am certainly not the best golfer out there, but there is a difference between not hitting the ball far and/or straight and being a poor golfer. I know the rules and etiquette - I know where to leave my clubs and to bring extra clubs from the cart if I'm riding - I know when to say my ball is lost and drop one - I know the little things that speed up play. That beings said - am I a slower player than a single digit handicapper - on the way to the green - you bet I am, but I never exceed the time alloted per hole. If you and I played together - you'd have more time to contemplate your next shot, but you wouldn't be ready to pick up and go home.

 

[Sean]

JP - I am certainly not the best golfer out there, but there is a difference between not hitting the ball far and/or straight and being a poor golfer. I know the rules and etiquette - I know where to leave my clubs and to bring extra clubs from the cart if I'm riding - I know when to say my ball is lost and drop one - I know the little things that speed up play. That beings said - am I a slower player than a single digit handicapper - on the way to the green - you bet I am, but I never exceed the time alloted per hole. If you and I played together - you'd have more time to contemplate your next shot, but you wouldn't be ready to pick up and go home.

I've played with single digits that are very slow, and played with high handicappers that move right along. As you alluded it to I think it has more to do with understanding the rules and etiquette than anything else. That said there are a lot of male golfers out there that play from the wrong tee boxes. I know it's an ego thing, but they would have a lot more fun if they moved up.

For me I look at the par 4s on a scorecard and I play the tee boxes where I can reach the majority of par 4s with a good drive and a good mid-iron. If that's "short" than so be it.

 

[C-Tech]

And they weren't letting you play through?

If not, I would definitely have said something. If they're not going to use common sense, then I'll talk some into them.

When most of them are wearing the caps backwards, wearing workboots under saggy shorts and a tank top, while holding a beer can, you just don't waste your time talking to them.

 

[JPsuff]

JP - I am certainly not the best golfer out there, but there is a difference between not hitting the ball far and/or straight and being a poor golfer. I know the rules and etiquette - I know where to leave my clubs and to bring extra clubs from the cart if I'm riding - I know when to say my ball is lost and drop one - I know the little things that speed up play. That beings said - am I a slower player than a single digit handicapper - on the way to the green - you bet I am, but I never exceed the time alloted per hole. If you and I played together - you'd have more time to contemplate your next shot, but you wouldn't be ready to pick up and go home.

When I was working in the recording studio and playing with dozens of great musicians and friends, there was a guy named Joe who was a longtime friend of most of the guys, whom everyone loved and who was one of the nicest guys you'd ever want to know and Joe just loved to play the drums. He only knew one basic beat and he could hardly keep that going steady, but we all jammed with him because we liked him. But no matter how much he loved to play, he simply didn't have a drummer in him.

Golf has those same people out there.

All I'm saying is that there are people who - just like Joe and no matter how long they stay with it - simply will not be good at golf just as Joe was never going to be a good drummer. They may be very serious and they may try very hard, they may love to get out there and play, but they just don't possess the physical ability to successfully strike a golf ball and as a result, they generally end up hitting it all over the lot and ultimately slowing everything down.

In a word, they suck.

And I don't care how much etiquette they know or how many divots they fix, they are always going to be holding people up and there's no getting around that and the only reason I bring these people up is because it is they, rather than the occasional person or group playing from "the wrong tees", who regularly hold up the show, yet no one seems to have any problem with them - just the people playing "the wrong tees".

Why is that?

I've played with single digits that are very slow, and played with high handicappers that move right along. As you alluded it to I think it has more to do with understanding the rules and etiquette than anything else. That said there are a lot of male golfers out there that play from the wrong tee boxes. I know it's an ego thing, but they would have a lot more fun if they moved up.

For me I look at the par 4s on a scorecard and I play the tee boxes where I can reach the majority of par 4s with a good drive and a good mid-iron. If that's "short" than so be it.

First of all, I firmly believe that golf isn't a race and I also feel that 4 1/2 hrs. is a very comfortable time span in which to play a round and even 5 hrs. wouldn't be uncomfortable and is in fact, quite typical here on Long Island.

But I honestly don't have a problem with the tees from which people choose to play the game. The way I've always seen it is that they paid their green fee just like the rest of us and they're entitled to play from any tees they choose. Now that doesn't mean that I won't have an opinion about whether or not they actually belong on those tees, but that's all it is - an opinion.

With what I see and have seen over the years, I must once again point out that the vast majority of traffic and holdups out on a typical course are caused by regular folks playing from regular tees. Most of the people I see using back tees can, for the most part, handle them and only occasionally do I encounter someone who really ought to be playing from farther up.

As far as "where should I play from?" is concerned, Once again I'll point to the "Five-iron Rule". Take your average 5-iron distance and multiply it by 36. The resulting sum is considered to be roughly equal to the course length you should be able to comfortably handle.

I myself have said many times that I like a course that measures in the 6,800 yard range and the "Five iron Rule" bears that out. In my case, I hit my 5-iron an average of 190 yards and thus the "Five-iron Rule" places my "ideal" yardage at 6,840 yards which is exactly the length I prefer.

And just for the record, I preferred that length before I ever heard of the "Five-iron Rule".

Just so we're all clear, Sean, I understand what you, Diane and others are saying and to some extent I even agree with many of you. But please understand that what I'm saying is that the weight of the world cannot be placed entirely upon the shoulders of the handful of people who either play out of their depth or mimic the pro's to the point of tedium. Most of the people who play weekend golf play from skill- appropriate tees, understand the rules and etiquette and even love the game - yet there are still excessively long waits on tees and excessively long playing times.

There is a reason for that and I sincerely doubt it's solely or even largely the fault of the "Blue Tee People" or the "Tiger wannabe's".


-JP