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Tournament format "issue"

tyno

tyno

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For the past 25 years, my dad (and I for half those years) have been running a memorial tournament.
It's a small 2 man scramble, mostly the same guys every year...around 40 is our average.
We attempt to make the pairings based on your average scoring range for 18 the best we can, by teaming up A/F, B/E, C/D
Normally A is 70-80 and F is 110-120 (groups used to be tighter by 5's, but it just depends on how many signups and who signs up)
Although the teams come out pretty fair most of the time and no one has ever complained, we've been seeing a trend lately.
In 8 of the past 11 years, the A/F groups have won, and 2 of those years swept completely 1st/2nd/3rd
One A golfer has won 5 times in the past 10 years.

So my question to the forum....is there a problem and does it need/can it be solved if so?
Not knowing the groups, talent, course, etc....it may be tough to gauge the question, but basically the A golfers are shooting the winning scores by themselves and the F golfers are just along for the ride, while the B/E, C/D groups are truly scrambling by the definition of the format, and placing here and there, winning every blue moon. I feel it's worth mentioning that the course is driver/wedge, with only a few tough holes.

So what would you do? Continue to reward the best golfers? Switch up the pairings formula? Mend the format?
Has anyone been through a similar situation? Has it worked out when switched up?
Appreciate any and all input!
 
My home course occasionally use the Callaway Scoring System to even the playing field a bit. That might be something to look in to. You may also have to say both members must contribute at least 1 score one both sides. That could help make a difference too. Just a thought.
 
Nature of the beast, the format sounds good to me and should balance itself out. Maybe you need to change up the tees the "A" players are playing, make them play longer.
 
I like having a requirement that each player must contribute a certain number of holes. Could always change the format, maybe a shamble, or even make the first 6 be scramble, next 6 shamble, and last 6 alt shot. Could be a lot for folks to remember unless you somehow laid out a sign at each tee box so they know which hole is which format. Of course you run the risk of golfers forgetting or bowing out if they don't like the format change.
 
I would go with making each player mark a score a certain amount of times per 9. Whether that is 1 or 3 times is debatable. That way the F player isn't along for the ride. In the other groups, I am sure there is a good mix of both players contributing, but when you have a player who shoots sub 80 routinely, the other guy (who shoots well above 100) is 99.9% of the time not going to shoot a better hole/shot than the good player.

With it being scramble you could do drives or even the scoring putt.
 
It is not much of a surprise that the better players are winning. If the F players are there to essentially give them a line or just put a ball in play to loosen up their game, it's going to help. Hard to combat that. As others have said, requiring a certain amount of certain shots per player would help. I have played in a memorial scramble the past couple of years that allows you to put together your own 4 person team. I got recruited into it by a friend of mine and we walk away winning each time. But, the people playing in it are just looking to have a good time and connect with the family.

Personally, I wouldn't overthink it. As long as people are enjoying themselves and no one is complaining, you are doing things right.
 
all great input....
we've discussed a few of these options and want to still make sure we're protecting everyone, as well as not driving anyone away.

i am of the "nature of the beast" opinion...it is what it is, and i'd hate to turn it into a "gimmick tourney" if only for 1 attempt. but i suppose then you just have an asterisk year.
but i'm also not fully opposed to adding something in. i wouldn't mind trying 1 shot, per player, per hole....even if it's just the gimme putt, but i'm not sure how much that would change anything. it depends on the scenario/dynamic of the group.

my dad wants 6 drives (tee shots) required per player. believes that will even out the A's just a bit.
i dislike that and believe it wouldn't make the F golfer feel like he was contributing, rather hurting the team.

but a few have mentioned and are right....we do have a good thing going and no one is complaining.
 
tyno said:
all great input....
we've discussed a few of these options and want to still make sure we're protecting everyone, as well as not driving anyone away.

i am of the "nature of the beast" opinion...it is what it is, and i'd hate to turn it into a "gimmick tourney" if only for 1 attempt. but i suppose then you just have an asterisk year.
but i'm also not fully opposed to adding something in. i wouldn't mind trying 1 shot, per player, per hole....even if it's just the gimme putt, but i'm not sure how much that would change anything. it depends on the scenario/dynamic of the group.

my dad wants 6 drives (tee shots) required per player. believes that will even out the A's just a bit.
i dislike that and believe it wouldn't make the F golfer feel like he was contributing, rather hurting the team.

but a few have mentioned and are right....we do have a good thing going and no one is complaining.
Click to expand...

6 is a lot haha. I agree with you that would more than likely make the F player feel worse/being blamed for not winning or performing well
 
We use to do something similar to junior days.

Over the years we found 3 required tee shots and 3 required putts to be pretty fair. Nothing is going to be perfect, but I think it's fair for everyone to have to contribute in a team event.
 
Honestly that Callaway Scoring System is a great equalizer from what I have seen. All teams have been within 2-3 strokes every single time I have seen it used. The team that performed best is still going to win.
 
When we used to do our corporate golf outing, we did mixed foursomes and required at least one drive from each team member. (Some holes, the women's tees gave them a big advantage)
The basic question is if that one player that much better than everyone else, and if so, why doesn't he have competition? But if no one is complaining, you must be doing it right.
 
Stryker said:
Honestly that Callaway Scoring System is a great equalizer from what I have seen. All teams have been within 2-3 strokes every single time I have seen it used. The team that performed best is still going to win.
Click to expand...

dumb question
can you use callaway system in a 2 man scramble?

more details in my argument that we don't have an issue is....small tourney, 36 golfers, 18 groups. scoring range was (-4) to (+4)
we've certainly had some doozies in the past, but this is definitely the tightest dispersion in scoring ever....
the callaway system would basically put all teams at even par i believe.
 
To me, scrambles are mostly about fun and not so much the seriousness of winning them. That's why imo so many charity outings use that format (as well as it being a time saver). In many ways a scramble is very much like stroke play especially when any group has an "A" player.
Unless those "A" players have a bad day its very likely going to be a team with one of them who wins and also likely any team with an "A" player will be near the top. Imo if one really wants to respectably even up the odds, the way to do it is to place the same ability players together and handicap the whole thing accordingly. So a 4 and a 8 cap will play as a 6 cap. While the 18 and the 24 play as a 21 and the 13 and the 17 play as a 15 cap. Etc.
 
Charity scrambles are for fun. There are plenty of gross 2 and 3 man scrambles that you play with another group with decent prize money. There are around here at least.
 
In any scramble you should be required to use each players tee shot at least once per 9. In a 4 person scramble that means the low handicaps drive is max being used 6 times. In a 2 person scramble i would say at least 2 drives per player per nine, and as many as 3 (that would get 6 total per your dads suggestion).

It adds some strategy to the proceedings and would help even things out for the more mid handicappers in the group.
 
tyno said:
dumb question
can you use callaway system in a 2 man scramble?

more details in my argument that we don't have an issue is....small tourney, 36 golfers, 18 groups. scoring range was (-4) to (+4)
we've certainly had some doozies in the past, but this is definitely the tightest dispersion in scoring ever....
the callaway system would basically put all teams at even par i believe.
Click to expand...

I don’t see why not. It’s basically just a method of handicapping the match.


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Yeah with a 2-man scramble, the A-player will tend to dominate because there are too few shots per team (i.e. a 4-man team tends to be an equalizer because of the extra shots, and especially the extra putts). The best way to temper the A-player is to have a drive requirement for each player. You can also use different tee boxes to help equalize the situation.
 
Or the best players wins more often.
 
pattyboy21 said:
Yeah with a 2-man scramble, the A-player will tend to dominate because there are too few shots per team (i.e. a 4-man team tends to be an equalizer because of the extra shots, and especially the extra putts). The best way to temper the A-player is to have a drive requirement for each player. You can also use different tee boxes to help equalize the situation.
Click to expand...
Not really. At first I was thinking the 4man may equal things as well. But for the same reason it doesnt work in the 2man it wont work in a 4. Its still basically stroke play for the "A" players no matter if 2 or 4 man. The only one difference with 4 is that on the ocassion the "A" player makea a bad shot there may be another among the 3 others instead of just one other able to make up for it with a good shot. But in the end its very much still mostly all about the "A" players. It will by default most always work out that way. They simply are just too consistent vs all the others and when we really think about scramble it really is very much like stroke play for those "A" players who are carrying their group most the round. Unless that player has an outright bad day he is still likely to win or be near the top with the other A's regardless of 2 or 4man.

Actually scrambles work best and most fun when most all the players are mid to mid/high caps because that's when it truly becomes a fairly even match. And where all the players can contribute to each other as they share many more best shots between all in the group as they each make enough bad and good shots.
 
tyno said:
all great input....
we've discussed a few of these options and want to still make sure we're protecting everyone, as well as not driving anyone away.

i am of the "nature of the beast" opinion...it is what it is, and i'd hate to turn it into a "gimmick tourney" if only for 1 attempt. but i suppose then you just have an asterisk year.
but i'm also not fully opposed to adding something in. i wouldn't mind trying 1 shot, per player, per hole....even if it's just the gimme putt, but i'm not sure how much that would change anything. it depends on the scenario/dynamic of the group.

my dad wants 6 drives (tee shots) required per player. believes that will even out the A's just a bit.
i dislike that and believe it wouldn't make the F golfer feel like he was contributing, rather hurting the team.

but a few have mentioned and are right....we do have a good thing going and no one is complaining.
Click to expand...

I agree you have to use a required number of the tee shots and/or approach shots from the F/E players just to make it more fair for the C D players. Otherwise the A players are just going to continue to dominate.
 
i've mentioned before that the issue is not the format, it's the field. and there's just nothing you can do to change that...unless everyone decides to take up golf full time and get better!

required drives seems to be the standard though. the decision comes down to how many.
i'm more in favor of 1 shot per hole, even if it's just the gimme putt....
i think that that will require more of a strategy from the start, and cut down on the natural birdie element

but again, i'm also in full favor of not changing anything
coulda/shoulda/woulda....but had I carried more of my weight this past tourney, hit some better wedges and made some putts, we would've won/tied/placed
i heard from other groups that they had plenty of birdies, but matching or more bogeys.
so again....it's a matter of the A golfer being able to shoot that well, and stabilize that score...but the others not being able to hold tight for all 18, consistently.
 
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