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Rules Question: Hazard and Lift, Clean & Place

TheHeez

TheHeez

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Ran into this situation in my clubs tournament this past weekend. We are playing LCP due to the course conditions after a ton of rain this season. Two of the players in my group hit into the hazard (a pond) about a foot beyond the red line, but their balls were identifiable and in the water about 2-3” submerged. They deemed that LCP allowed them to remove the balls from the water and hit their shot from within the hazard line, but not 3” underwater and no nearer the hole. I maintained that they needed to take a penalty stroke to remove the ball from the hazard, then play it LCP. Who was in the right?
 
TheHeez said:
Ran into this situation in my clubs tournament this past weekend. We are playing LCP due to the course conditions after a ton of rain this season. Two of the players in my group hit into the hazard (a pond) about a foot beyond the red line, but their balls were identifiable and in the water about 2-3” submerged. They deemed that LCP allowed them to remove the balls from the water and hit their shot from within the hazard line, but not 3” underwater and no nearer the hole. I maintained that they needed to take a penalty stroke to remove the ball from the hazard, then play it LCP. Who was in the right?
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LCP was implemented everywhere on the course, not just fairways? Was the pond a 'pond' before the recent rains? To me, that's a penalty stroke not LCP by any stretch of the imagination.
 
Stemmy66 said:
LCP was implemented everywhere on the course, not just fairways? Was the pond a 'pond' before the recent rains? To me, that's a penalty stroke not LCP by any stretch of the imagination.
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Yes it was, everywhere but bunkers and greens. The pond is always a pond and not just temporary standing water.
 
Hazard is Hazard - Period.

Additionally, your tournament committee should have stated clearly, LCP "through the green" or "fairways only" or "Closely mown areas" to remove any ambiguity!
 
TheHeez said:
Yes it was, everywhere but bunkers and greens. The pond is always a pond and not just temporary standing water.
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HUH? No LCP on the greens...that makes no sense! You can always LCP on the greens!!

If they truly said this, then your TC are totally clueless! If they said anywhere on the course, then that is the rule and you can LCP in the hazard area.
 
TheHeez said:
Yes it was, everywhere but bunkers and greens. The pond is always a pond and not just temporary standing water.
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Then it should have been a penalty stroke and tournament committee / staff should have intervened in the ruling as a penalty stroke, IMO.
 
lockstockrye said:
HUH? No LCP on the greens...that makes no sense! You can always LCP on the greens!!

If they truly said this, then your TC are totally clueless! If they said anywhere on the course, then that is the rule and you can LCP in the hazard area.
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Well the implemented local rule of LCP included being able to move within a club length. Standard rules of golf applied on the greens.
 
Whenever preferred lies are implemented, it can't apply inside of bunkers or penalty areas. If they wanted to lift the ball in the penalty area, they would have to proceed with the relief procedure taking the proper penalty and dropping the ball in the relief area. If you are playing LCP through the green, then they could lift, clean, and place.

Even if preferred lies aren't in effect, you can take relief from an embedded ball in the general area, that is, not a penalty area, bunker, or on the green.
 
LPGA player was dinged for this the other week when she LCPed while in Ruff.
 
Oops, watching too much golf lately. Old man brain fart😂
 
captaincaution said:
That was in the Augusta Women's Amateur.
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Anna Davis the defending champ who missed the cut by 2 strokes.

They really need to get a grip on this LCP deal.

Judy Ranken totally threw her under the bus but she is 17 and what was her caddy doing?

I don't know I just felt bad for her, it surely wasn’t intentional and she bogeys the hole anyway.

I just hope it doesn't derail her in the future.
 
captaincaution said:
Whenever preferred lies are implemented, it can't apply inside of bunkers or penalty areas. If they wanted to lift the ball in the penalty area, they would have to proceed with the relief procedure taking the proper penalty and dropping the ball in the relief area. If you are playing LCP through the green, then they could lift, clean, and place.

Even if preferred lies aren't in effect, you can take relief from an embedded ball in the general area, that is, not a penalty area, bunker, or on the green.
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Sounds like we agree. LCP does not apply in penalty areas and for these players to remove their balls from the penalty they would have to take a penalty stroke and place outside of the penalty area.

I also didn't like one of the dudes responses of "well we aren't winning anyways..." Yeah, but you are screwing else over. I wish I pushed back harder on this, or at least pushed to revisit after the round with the TC. Didn't help that it was 2 on 1, and I felt a little ganged up on and wasn't playing great myself.
 
captaincaution said:
Whenever preferred lies are implemented, it can't apply inside of bunkers or penalty areas. If they wanted to lift the ball in the penalty area, they would have to proceed with the relief procedure taking the proper penalty and dropping the ball in the relief area. If you are playing LCP through the green, then they could lift, clean, and place.

Even if preferred lies aren't in effect, you can take relief from an embedded ball in the general area, that is, not a penalty area, bunker, or on the green.
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@captaincaution has it. The idea that LCP applies to penalty areas and bunkers is typically crazy talk. Most applications I've seen of LCP apply to fairway height or less, only within your own fairway.

However, I have played in a few tournaments during the winter where absolutely no bunker maintenance had been done and they were in terrible shape, so they allow "lift, rake, and place" in the bunker. These are pretty casual tournaments though so they tend to make up rules that wouldn't happen in a higher-level competition.
 
LCP in hazard is some bush league nonsense.
 
TheHeez said:
Ran into this situation in my clubs tournament this past weekend. We are playing LCP due to the course conditions after a ton of rain this season. Two of the players in my group hit into the hazard (a pond) about a foot beyond the red line, but their balls were identifiable and in the water about 2-3” submerged. They deemed that LCP allowed them to remove the balls from the water and hit their shot from within the hazard line, but not 3” underwater and no nearer the hole. I maintained that they needed to take a penalty stroke to remove the ball from the hazard, then play it LCP. Who was in the right?
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If your TC allowed them to move the ball in the hazard that is absurd. LCP should not include hazards.
 
I would have assumed that LCP would exclude when things are in a hazard or OOB.

Seems usual for them to be in the fairway, okay local rule for it to be in the rough but super odd for them to be in hazards with a club length.
 
I mean to be fair my league that allows preferred lies had to say that the ball had to be on your fairway to be able to LCP. People will push the limits of acceptable.
 
at the end of the round was this brought up to the tourney officials? if not, why not?
 
I can't see LCP ever applying in a hazard unless the local/tournament rule explicitly stated that it was. It certainly isn't within the Rules of Golf.
 
AndyL0711 said:
at the end of the round was this brought up to the tourney officials? if not, why not?
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It should have been and I should have pushed back harder. I was already the guy in the group that questioned another ruling and I guess I didn’t want the headache. Definitely been eating at me since, hence the thread.

Edit: What I should have done is asked them to play it as they see fit but be adamant about getting a ruling before signing any card. I am part of the problem.

I also think I’ve gotten complacent in my rule hawking as I tend to play with people that don’t pull crap like this.
 
TheHeez said:
It should have been and I should have pushed back harder. I was already the guy in the group that questioned another ruling and I guess I didn’t want the headache. Definitely been eating at me since, hence the thread.

Edit: What I should have done is asked them to play it as they see fit but be adamant about getting a ruling before signing any card. I am part of the problem.

I also think I’ve gotten complacent in my rule hawking as I tend to play with people that don’t pull crap like this.
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Play 2 balls and keep scores of each. Ask the officials at end and put correct score in.
 
Yeah, this doesn’t fall under lift clean and place to me. Tourney should have been clear on this.
 
TheHeez said:
Sounds like we agree. LCP does not apply in penalty areas and for these players to remove their balls from the penalty they would have to take a penalty stroke and place outside of the penalty area.

I also didn't like one of the dudes responses of "well we aren't winning anyways..." Yeah, but you are screwing else over. I wish I pushed back harder on this, or at least pushed to revisit after the round with the TC. Didn't help that it was 2 on 1, and I felt a little ganged up on and wasn't playing great myself.
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Well, to be precise, they would have to take a penalty, drop in the relief area, then they could lift, clean, and place. But if it isn't super serious, I would just place it to begin with too.
 
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