Iron Design & Marketing - Descent angle, the unspoken metric

[obedt]

This may be a fitting topic, but I posted it here because it touches on iron design. Mods, please move if it belongs in the other forum.

During the ball fitting portion of the Ultimate Testing with Titleist event, my fitter focused on descent angle in my irons. This was the determining metric in me being fit to the highest launching, highest spinning golf ball Titleist produces.

Now this is a term that is never advertised, and honestly I considered to be less important than launch angle, ball speed, carry distance, etc. My fitter never did get it exactly to where he wanted, but it was a ball fitting event after all so he did the best he could and we wound up around 42 degrees with the 6 iron iirc.

About a week before the event I started a thread about not holding greens and one of the more knowledgeable event participants, Desmond, recommended I go with the highest spinning ball I could find. Well, he was dead on. Still, the itch is there to try out other irons and try and maximize the one metric the fitter focused on. Problem is, it is extremely difficult to find information about what iron design will improve descent angle.

Seems like a complicated discussion because I would guess ball speed, launch angle and spin all affect this number. I have no idea how each aspect contributes to the end result.

It seems like a wild goose chase. Do I still look at low spinning, forgiving designs that will launch high? Should I trade some of that forgiveness for more spin, all the while making sure I maintain high launch? Is it an inconsequential metric and something I shouldn't be looking at, or should it be more of an emphasis and thus highlighted by manufacturers?

Complex subject, I know, but given the knowledge base here I hope it can be useful for some others as well. [Additional note, the course I play has smaller than average and firm greens]

 

[obedt]

A couple of interesting charts from trackman:

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

Some of my numbers match up nicely with LPGA tour averages. I do get a little more distance out of my irons on average, but it may be coming because of too much roll-out.

 

[gmiller598]

Personally, it seems to make sense to me that all 3 pieces (club head, shaft, and ball) play a part in this process. If you change one of them, it might necessitate a change in the other pieces to balance out the optimal numbers. I suspect the club head and the shaft have the highest amount of impact on those numbers and then just using the correct ball is fine tuning.

It almost sounds to me that if you go for a less forgiving head and higher spinning shaft, you are going it just so you can use a lower priced distance ball. In the effort of making the game easier for everyone and myself, I think I would personally want the most forgiving head paired with the correct shaft and then simply find a ball that performs the way I want it to. The tricky thing is that the spin numbers on the ball can impact the launch and decent of the shaft to a certain degree.

Perhaps a way people could and should go about this is to find a ball they like and then get fit into their shaft that matches the ball? The downside to that is that companies makes tweaks to the ball every couple of years, discontinue balls, launch new models etc.

 

[emart2173]

A couple of interesting charts from trackman:

https://blog.trackmangolf.com/trackman-average-tour-stats/

Some of my numbers match up nicely with LPGA tour averages. I do get a little more distance out of my irons on average, but it may be coming because of too much roll-out.

Regarding your last comment the vast majority of amateurs look at their total distance and not their carry. Understanding how much ones clubs total can help to choose the right right club to avoid a shot rolling into a hazard or end of the fairway into rough, or what type of shot they hit into a green so to,try not to be left with a long putt...but IMO knowing carry is more important.

To your op I think the combo is dependent on the player and the setup as well as the golf swing that will determine what gets them optimal numbers and why a good fitting is important to find clubs that work for you

 

[McRock]

I think hitting down on a ball with your irons will have a bigger effect on decent angle than anything else. But that's just a guess by me.

~Rock

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

 

[GoldenBuff]

Interesting and relevant topic. In my iron fitting, it became so clear that shaft was the primary factor in ball flight and spin. For example, most of my shaft fitting was using an MP-25 6i head. With different shafts, my spin ranged from 3500 to 6500. Some shafts produced flights that went high with little spin and dropped almost straight down. Others produced more spin with a medium flight and 45-48 deg landing angle. Other shafts produced way too much spin. Heads mattered too. With the JPX900 Tour 6i spin numbers were well above 7000 with shorter distances. To get that head with a flight and spin I wanted, I would have to hit shafts that I don't think would be sustainable for me. The other thing that came into play with iron heads is how my swing matched certain head shapes. I came in to the fitting thinking GI to players irons range and left thinking head shape is more important. I do better with a thinner sole. The turf interaction for my swing was a factor in impact and thus spin and flight. I learned a ton and should have a much better set of clubs coming for my swing. I'd say it was 60% shaft and 40% head for me to get the right ball flight.

 

[obedt]

Personally, it seems to make sense to me that all 3 pieces (club head, shaft, and ball) play a part in this process. If you change one of them, it might necessitate a change in the other pieces to balance out the optimal numbers. I suspect the club head and the shaft have the highest amount of impact on those numbers and then just using the correct ball is fine tuning.

It almost sounds to me that if you go for a less forgiving head and higher spinning shaft, you are going it just so you can use a lower priced distance ball. In the effort of making the game easier for everyone and myself, I think I would personally want the most forgiving head paired with the correct shaft and then simply find a ball that performs the way I want it to. The tricky thing is that the spin numbers on the ball can impact the launch and decent of the shaft to a certain degree.

Perhaps a way people could and should go about this is to find a ball they like and then get fit into their shaft that matches the ball? The downside to that is that companies makes tweaks to the ball every couple of years, discontinue balls, launch new models etc.

You make a great point about the impact a ball can have. The change to the X moved my descent angle from 39 degrees to 42. My problem is that even with the spinniest ball I'm not getting the window in descent angle the fitter thought was appropriate. IIRC he was trying to get it to 46 degrees with 6 iron, which makes sense given the chart of LPGA players. I'm not trying to save a few bucks by changing to a cheaper ball, just want to get as much stopping power as possible.

Regarding your last comment the vast majority of amateurs look at their total distance and not their carry. Understanding how much ones clubs total can help to choose the right right club to avoid a shot rolling into a hazard or end of the fairway into rough, or what type of shot they hit into a green so to,try not to be left with a long putt...but IMO knowing carry is more important.

To your op I think the combo is dependent on the player and the setup as well as the golf swing that will determine what gets them optimal numbers and why a good fitting is important to find clubs that work for you

In your experience in Titleist Thursdays and other times getting fit for irons, is this metric looked at all? Is stopping power a point of emphasis in fittings? I've never had an iron fitting so that is something I've been wondering.

I think hitting down on a ball with your irons will have a bigger effect on decent angle than anything else. But that's just a guess by me.

~Rock

Sent from my SM-G930R4 using Tapatalk

My swing definitely is a big part of the issue. I don't think I'm alone though. Here is the crux of my thought process and the thread - high ball speed iron designs emphasize launch and total distance. I would benefit from some of these same designs - high ball speed for certain, but in a package meant to launch HIGHER than the average design based on the club number standards. That would result in less total distance and I'm sure club manufacturers are reticent to make that trade-off in design.

Say having the exact Rogue iron design but with lofts two degrees weaker. That would probably get me much closer to the desired descent angle, less run-out and better golf. I could order these irons two degrees weaker, but then I'm exposing a lot of bounce and altering the sole design.

Interesting and relevant topic. In my iron fitting, it became so clear that shaft was the primary factor in ball flight and spin. For example, most of my shaft fitting was using an MP-25 6i head. With different shafts, my spin ranged from 3500 to 6500. Some shafts produced flights that went high with little spin and dropped almost straight down. Others produced more spin with a medium flight and 45-48 deg landing angle. Other shafts produced way too much spin. Heads mattered too. With the JPX900 Tour 6i spin numbers were well above 7000 with shorter distances. To get that head with a flight and spin I wanted, I would have to hit shafts that I don't think would be sustainable for me. The other thing that came into play with iron heads is how my swing matched certain head shapes. I came in to the fitting thinking GI to players irons range and left thinking head shape is more important. I do better with a thinner sole. The turf interaction for my swing was a factor in impact and thus spin and flight. I learned a ton and should have a much better set of clubs coming for my swing. I'd say it was 60% shaft and 40% head for me to get the right ball flight.

Interesting thoughts mtcowdog. Thanks for posting. Maybe there isn't a way to get into the correct window without an extensive fitting.

 

[dthrog00]

You may not be getting quite enough launch angle. Maybe a higher launching / spinnier shaft? What shaft did you use? Something like the Nippon 880 AMC might do the trick.

I didn't get to 46 degrees either.

Dave

 

[Snickerdog]

To get to another 4 degrees of decent angle, wouldn't you need to get a higher height (read less penetrating flight) in order for the ball to come down steeper ?

You make a great point about the impact a ball can have. The change to the X moved my descent angle from 39 degrees to 42. My problem is that even with the spinniest ball I'm not getting the window in descent angle the fitter thought was appropriate. IIRC he was trying to get it to 46 degrees with 6 iron, which makes sense given the chart of LPGA players. I'm not trying to save a few bucks by changing to a cheaper ball, just want to get as much stopping power as possible.






In your experience in Titleist Thursdays and other times getting fit for irons, is this metric looked at all? Is stopping power a point of emphasis in fittings? I've never had an iron fitting so that is something I've been wondering.



My swing definitely is a big part of the issue. I don't think I'm alone though. Here is the crux of my thought process and the thread - high ball speed iron designs emphasize launch and total distance. I would benefit from some of these same designs - high ball speed for certain, but in a package meant to launch HIGHER than the average design based on the club number standards. That would result in less total distance and I'm sure club manufacturers are reticent to make that trade-off in design.

Say having the exact Rogue iron design but with lofts two degrees weaker. That would probably get me much closer to the desired descent angle, less run-out and better golf. I could order these irons two degrees weaker, but then I'm exposing a lot of bounce and altering the sole design.



Interesting thoughts mtcowdog. Thanks for posting. Maybe there isn't a way to get into the correct window without an extensive fitting.

 

[emart2173]

In your experience in Titleist Thursdays and other times getting fit for irons, is this metric looked at all? Is stopping power a point of emphasis in fittings? I've never had an iron fitting so that is something I've been

In my titleist Thursday fittings it’s definitely one aspect that the fitter looked at, but it was in conjunction with peak height and spin. He didn’t pay much attention or at least in my iron fitting the fitter didn’t mention anything about it. But both my driver and iron fittings spin, peak height, descent angle as well as overall ball flight we’re taken into account. This is one reason I prefer outdoor fittings because numbers imo only tell part of the story and seeing the ball flight and the effects the numbers have it is the other.

In my ust fitting Danny talked about the setup we went with maximized my carry and roll out. We didn’t discuss any numbers and I focused solely on what I was seeing and feeling and gave that feedback to Danny and let him use the numbers plus feedback to make adjustments.

I’ve been lucky that a lot of fittings I’ve done have been with really good fitters who uses numbers and visual ball flight and in a few cases with the old ping rep we had here just the ball flight and feedback was used to adjust. He used gc2 only to show the golfer the numbers and how they correlated to the ball flight. I’ve gamed gi doen thru mb and 9-10.5* driver heads and stock or upgrade shafts. Ball for me is usually similar type for years during the warm months so I rarely worry about what happens when I switch between different brands of clubs and balls. Some balls perform better than others but the variance in distance is probably no more than 5–10 yards carry and on partial shots all are very sinilar

 

[obedt]

You may not be getting quite enough launch angle. Maybe a higher launching / spinnier shaft? What shaft did you use? Something like the Nippon 880 AMC might do the trick.

I didn't get to 46 degrees either.

Dave

Yeah, it was a ball fitting and he got it as close as he could. The education was valuable though, and I can see where I'm missing out equipment wise. What did you wind up with? Fwiw, my shafts are Recoil SmacWraps which are lightweight, mid-high launch, mid spin.

To get to another 4 degrees of decent angle, wouldn't you need to get a higher height (read less penetrating flight) in order for the ball to come down steeper ?

Yes, exactly. I guess I'll have to manufacture that by playing the ball further forward and maybe getting more spine tilt. I wonder what iron sets are designed for higher and not necessarily farther though.

 

[gmiller598]

Iron Design & Marketing - Descent angle, the unspoken metric

Iron Design & Marketing - Descent angle, the unspoken metric

Yeah, it was a ball fitting and he got it as close as he could. The education was valuable though, and I can see where I'm missing out equipment wise. What did you wind up with? Fwiw, my shafts are Recoil SmacWraps which are lightweight, mid-high launch, mid spin.




Yes, exactly. I guess I'll have to manufacture that by playing the ball further forward and maybe getting more spine tilt. I wonder what iron sets are designed for higher and not necessarily farther though.

I think generally any higher launching shaft will spin more. I'm not sure there is a magic low spinning, high launching shaft. I find the 760 SMACWRAP launches high enough for me and I get good spin numbers with it when I hit it well. Just could be my swing, it could be the flex too. I've got the F3 SMACWRAP. That being said, I just hit the Rogue X with the stock Synergy shaft in them and they seemed go fly forever long and forever high. That might be something I could get a better benefit from with further testing.

 

[obedt]

So here are a couple follow up questions-

Would it benefit you to have more stopping power on the greens?
Would that be acceptable at the cost of total distance (although carry distance would be similar)?

 

[gmiller598]

So here are a couple follow up questions-

Would it benefit you to have more stopping power on the greens?
Would that be acceptable at the cost of total distance (although carry distance would be similar)?

The thing I “think” I was getting out of the demo of the Rogue X was probably the best of both worlds. The launch monitor could have been off but the Rogue X 7i in the Synergy R shaft appears to have had a much higher launch and spin with my swing even though the club lifts are so jacked in comparison to most 7i. The ball just seemed to stop and die on the virtual range according to the monitor. The launch monitor made it seem like the ball was going a mile high and carrying longer than my current 7i but it still showed I was getting around 7000 rpm spin on the club.

I also seem to get similar spin numbers on my B.B. OS with the SMACWRAP shafts but they most likely don’t launch as high. I tend to come in steep which is where my extra spin is coming from. In this case it seemed like I was getting higher launch, more distance and stopping power on a completely different shaft.

I’m frankly surprised and I’d like to hopefully get to demo the Rogue X on an actual track man against my current 7i but I think it is possible to get the best of both world with the right fitting combination. If I can truly increase my distance by about 10 yards on my irons and still generate enough spin with my swing on the Synergy graphite shaft Callaway should just take even more money from me now.


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[tahoebum]

I've never been through an iron club fitting that I trust. Hopefully, that will change at Club Champion this July when I go in for a fitting. I've always picked my shafts in my irons by watching the ball flight over several range sessions along with playing them on the course before I buy them. The one time I followed a club fitters suggestion on iron shafts(lighter shaft higher launch) it wound up hurting my dispersion and raising my scores.

 

[obedt]

The thing I “think” I was getting out of the demo of the Rogue X was probably the best of both worlds. The launch monitor could have been off but the Rogue X 7i in the Synergy R shaft appears to have had a much higher launch and spin with my swing even though the club lifts are so jacked in comparison to most 7i. The ball just seemed to stop and die on the virtual range according to the monitor. The launch monitor made it seem like the ball was going a mile high and carrying longer than my current 7i but it still showed I was getting around 7000 rpm spin on the club.

I also seem to get similar spin numbers on my B.B. OS with the SMACWRAP shafts but they most likely don’t launch as high. I tend to come in steep which is where my extra spin is coming from. In this case it seemed like I was getting higher launch, more distance and stopping power on a completely different shaft.

I’m frankly surprised and I’d like to hopefully get to demo the Rogue X on an actual track man against my current 7i but I think it is possible to get the best of both world with the right fitting combination. If I can truly increase my distance by about 10 yards on my irons and still generate enough spin with my swing on the Synergy graphite shaft Callaway should just take even more money from me now.


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Glad the X work for you man. I had written these off based off some numbers I had seen from others testing them.

In comparison with the Rogue 6i (43.9) and Rogue Pro 6i (42.5), the tester had the X 6i at only 37 degrees. That's not apples to apples because the X was a full club longer, but even comparing others at the 5i it would have been coming in too hot. I'll try and check out other reviews to see if it was isolated.

 

[mikeg_74]

Based on my Titleist fitting the fitter wanted to the descent angle to be around the 44-46* range to help hold more greens. low end would be 41-43 depending on spin. Launch was never addressed, but I have to imagine there is a correlation there.

 

[arydolphin]

I've never been through an iron club fitting that I trust. Hopefully, that will change at Club Champion this July when I go in for a fitting. I've always picked my shafts in my irons by watching the ball flight over several range sessions along with playing them on the course before I buy them. The one time I followed a club fitters suggestion on iron shafts(lighter shaft higher launch) it wound up hurting my dispersion and raising my scores.

If your focus is going to be dispersion, make sure you mention that to your CC fitter. It's not like they don't look at that, but they really focus on smash factor and making sure you are as efficient as possible, and occasionally that can be to the detriment of dispersion.

obedt, I think that most fitters are going to focus more on launch angle and spin rate for irons than descent angle, mainly because those parameters are more readily available to be measured as compared to descent angle. It's easier if you can hit balls outdoors on a Trackman or Flightscope because they can actually measure the descent angle. I think that the newer FSX software (GCQuad and GC2) will also give you the descent angle, but I still think that on those systems, people are looking more at launch angle and spin rate. The good fitters are going to be able to influence descent angle by either changing launch angle or spin rate.

 

[mikeg_74]

So here are a couple follow up questions-

Would it benefit you to have more stopping power on the greens?
Would that be acceptable at the cost of total distance (although carry distance would be similar)?

IMO more stopping power would be how aggressive you are in attacking pins. If you are confident enough to attack pins and want minimal rollout, more stopping power would be ideal. Now if you play middle of the green or front of the green because of a "sucker pin" location, then stopping power might not be ideal.

In the end it will come down to what you are comfortable with. The shaft will help when paired with the correct head as much as finding the right ball. During my fitting once we found the shaft to help with the descent, we looked at the ball. I could go Prov1 or Prov1x, but we went with the X to use the launch help me reach that preferred descent angle.

 

[gmiller598]

Glad the X work for you man. I had written these off based off some numbers I had seen from others testing them.

In comparison with the Rogue 6i (43.9) and Rogue Pro 6i (42.5), the tester had the X 6i at only 37 degrees. That's not apples to apples because the X was a full club longer, but even comparing others at the 5i it would have been coming in too hot. I'll try and check out other reviews to see if it was isolated.

Yeah. It may not apply to you since our swings are probably pretty different even though we both have the same shafts at the moment. I honestly don’t know what my current descent angle is but all things relative, maybe a higher launching shaft might give you what you want. The correct launch, loft and ball combo is out there for all of us. Just finding it seems to be the hard part.


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[c0ncept]

Makes perfect sense. Easy way to know if an iron will hold a green. I can see it being at the cost of other things though like distance.

 

[obedt]

IMO more stopping power would be how aggressive you are in attacking pins. If you are confident enough to attack pins and want minimal rollout, more stopping power would be ideal. Now if you play middle of the green or front of the green because of a "sucker pin" location, then stopping power might not be ideal.

In the end it will come down to what you are comfortable with. The shaft will help when paired with the correct head as much as finding the right ball. During my fitting once we found the shaft to help with the descent, we looked at the ball. I could go Prov1 or Prov1x, but we went with the X to use the launch help me reach that preferred descent angle.

Unless you are spinning balls back and given good gapping, I don't see how more stopping power is a negative. And it was something I didn't think about until a month ago. In my case, I'd be willing to give up total distance (not much carry though) for a better flight.

 

[obedt]

If your focus is going to be dispersion, make sure you mention that to your CC fitter. It's not like they don't look at that, but they really focus on smash factor and making sure you are as efficient as possible, and occasionally that can be to the detriment of dispersion.

obedt, I think that most fitters are going to focus more on launch angle and spin rate for irons than descent angle, mainly because those parameters are more readily available to be measured as compared to descent angle. It's easier if you can hit balls outdoors on a Trackman or Flightscope because they can actually measure the descent angle. I think that the newer FSX software (GCQuad and GC2) will also give you the descent angle, but I still think that on those systems, people are looking more at launch angle and spin rate. The good fitters are going to be able to influence descent angle by either changing launch angle or spin rate.

This is one of the most enlightening posts I've read all year. Thanks man.

 

[mikeg_74]

Unless you are spinning balls back and given good gapping, I don't see how more stopping power is a negative. And it was something I didn't think about until a month ago. In my case, I'd be willing to give up total distance (not much carry though) for a better flight.

That’s my point. Stopping power for me included spinning the ball back. It all depends on how you deliver the club head to the ball to create spin, but coming in at a higher decent angle, with stopping power has led me to spin balls back more.

 

[dthrog00]

Yeah, it was a ball fitting and he got it as close as he could. The education was valuable though, and I can see where I'm missing out equipment wise. What did you wind up with? Fwiw, my shafts are Recoil SmacWraps which are lightweight, mid-high launch, mid spin.

Yes, exactly. I guess I'll have to manufacture that by playing the ball further forward and maybe getting more spine tilt. I wonder what iron sets are designed for higher and not necessarily farther though.

AP1 w/ TT AMT Black R300 6-48*.

Dave