Cast vs Forged - The Master Debate
TC
Keg Thrower
that's a pity. i like them. they aren't forged though.
RxGus
Argyle Warrior
Because as humans, we categorize things and classify things- and then apply broad generalizations to each category. We organize our world in simple divisions so there is less to "learn". Its the same thing that drives stereotypes and to a large extent racisim.
The broad category here is "Forged irons" and while there is a lot of other things that go into what makes an iron soft (as has been well documented) we don't group irons in that way.
Here is the basic principal. Forged irons = Softer feel
Here is how the average person gets there (without knowing it) Forged irons = softer metals = softer feel.
The human mind just drops the middle step and then classifies forged as soft and cast as hard, in the same way we classify SUV as bad gas milage and economy car as good gasmilage (even though there are SUVs that get >30 and cars that get < 25). As a general rule it is true but it isn't universally true.
I have no hostility at all, the point of the bringing up the ball is to show for the last time WE ALL FEEL DIFFERENT THINGS. The second time me using the ball analogy was to show that an OEM will tell you sumthn just like they can tell me something...but their goal at the end of the day is to sell product. I loved the blind ball testing was exciting, just was a lil different then I expected. The forged vs cast debate is subject to feel, for each individual person, so stop with the silly and childish "except for you" comments, sarcasm is not needed in a debate.
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
That is what marketing companies want you to believe
golf4life
Grip n rip
Many here would argue that the difference in feel you are experiencing with your pro combos versus the big berthas has everything to do with the type of materials and club design and weighting, and nothing to do with how the club was made (forged versus cast). The click you are feeling with the combos is almost certainly due to the thinner sole and less turf interaction, and the sense you get in your hands with that club most certainly comes from the huge difference in forgiveness between a players club like the pro combos and a super game improvement iron like big berthas.
As you stated earlier in your post, you couldn't tell the difference between the vokeys and Nike VR wedges even though they are cast and forge because their weighting and other properties are pretty similar, with the cast or forging not making any difference in feel.
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- #207
Do you believe you are feeling the difference because of how the irons are made or because what they are made out of? Im trying to get information here and for some reason and really struggling to obtain it. So here we go. Two questions
1. You believe that forging an iron is what is making it feel softer to you?
2. Do you believe that plays a role larger than the ingredients of said iron?
A simple yes or no is all. Not arguing, again, just trying to get facts so I can present this to some places and finally put this to bed and as usual, THP can do some real testing and rip through marketing.
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Well I have forgotten more about castings and forgings than I can remember at this particular moment so if you bear with me I will get out some of my old texts and white papers and try to find a more definitive answer for you. All by way of saying give me a chance to look at what information I might have around and I will try to get a better answer for you.
I think off the top of my head that a casting is more brittle. There are air pockets that are trapped in the casting along with impurities and nothing has been done that works at the crystalline structure of the metal.
Forged metals are “worked” and thus the crystalline structure is broken and the material composition is aligned. As such the material is much less brittle , any air pockets are closed off (if it is properly worked) and the material is also much stronger. Racing application cam shafts are often forged for example while engine blocks are often cast. Gene Nead please help??
The process affects the properties of the material in this case so the analogy of a golf ball and a process does not quite hold here although I think your point with regard to a process and a golf ball is well taken JB.
That said the auditory differences are right at the surface so the comment about how much that governs how we view the materials in clubs made via these two processes is probably accurate as how often is someone really going to try to look past that auditory input.
More “feel” is not necessarily better feel. I think proponents of forged clubs would say that the difference is a further extension of the blade vs GI club discussion with an ability to “feel” when you have really pured it and also when you have hit it really poorly. In other words it is more an issue of feedback and a greater disparity between hitting it really right and hitting it not so right for two clubs of the exact same shape, one forged and one cast so you take shape out of the discussion from the perspective of feel. I guess that might be the same thing as saying when you really pure it the forged club might feel softer or better as a result.
Much depends on the casting process itself and the forging process itself (meaning the quality of the casting and the quality of the forging). Anyway I will have a good deal of reading to do to come back with something more definitive than this off the cuff stuff.
I can tell you that hitting a Mizuno MP-58 which is forged but with a plug of titanium in it and hitting an MP-68, all forged of one material feels very different especially when you hit it pure. So I would be kinda surprised if there was no difference between a cast club and a forged club. I don’t even have the time to look today but I will try to do something before the week is out.
If the question is in a blind test can someone tell the difference between a cast club and a forged club of the exact same shape if you take the auditory input out of the equation.......I just don't know that you could ever take the sound or auditory input out of the equation.
I think off the top of my head that a casting is more brittle. There are air pockets that are trapped in the casting along with impurities and nothing has been done that works at the crystalline structure of the metal.
Forged metals are “worked” and thus the crystalline structure is broken and the material composition is aligned. As such the material is much less brittle , any air pockets are closed off (if it is properly worked) and the material is also much stronger. Racing application cam shafts are often forged for example while engine blocks are often cast. Gene Nead please help??
The process affects the properties of the material in this case so the analogy of a golf ball and a process does not quite hold here although I think your point with regard to a process and a golf ball is well taken JB.
That said the auditory differences are right at the surface so the comment about how much that governs how we view the materials in clubs made via these two processes is probably accurate as how often is someone really going to try to look past that auditory input.
More “feel” is not necessarily better feel. I think proponents of forged clubs would say that the difference is a further extension of the blade vs GI club discussion with an ability to “feel” when you have really pured it and also when you have hit it really poorly. In other words it is more an issue of feedback and a greater disparity between hitting it really right and hitting it not so right for two clubs of the exact same shape, one forged and one cast so you take shape out of the discussion from the perspective of feel. I guess that might be the same thing as saying when you really pure it the forged club might feel softer or better as a result.
Much depends on the casting process itself and the forging process itself (meaning the quality of the casting and the quality of the forging). Anyway I will have a good deal of reading to do to come back with something more definitive than this off the cuff stuff.
I can tell you that hitting a Mizuno MP-58 which is forged but with a plug of titanium in it and hitting an MP-68, all forged of one material feels very different especially when you hit it pure. So I would be kinda surprised if there was no difference between a cast club and a forged club. I don’t even have the time to look today but I will try to do something before the week is out.
If the question is in a blind test can someone tell the difference between a cast club and a forged club of the exact same shape if you take the auditory input out of the equation.......I just don't know that you could ever take the sound or auditory input out of the equation.
TC
Keg Thrower
aye aye captain!
again, no sarcasm, just my opinion. debating means bringing an arguement to one side of the table, but you keep going on about "subjectivity". there's hard evidence from someone in the profession of club building that says one can't differentiate between a forged iron and a cast one. that means nothing to you? even big lefty was sharing thoughts from other club builders who said exactly the same thing.
forging and casting are just PROCESSES.
johnnymo
New member
Well there is definately some master debating going on in here 
Allow me to play devil's advocate here and pose this question. If the differences between forged and cast are so little then why are the tour pro bags stuffed with forged sticks?
john
Allow me to play devil's advocate here and pose this question. If the differences between forged and cast are so little then why are the tour pro bags stuffed with forged sticks?
john
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
To be honest JB, Design trumps ingredients and process in my mind. But that is if said ingredients are of significant quality, and process is done properly of course.
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- #212
Used to be the case. That is why casting got a bad name. Vacuum casting has changed that.
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- #213
Well there is definately some master debating going on in here
Allow me to play devil's advocate here and pose this question. If the differences between forged and cast are so little then why are the tour pro bags stuffed with forged sticks?
john
They arent. Sure some have them. Many others dont. The worlds' #1 player plays cast. So do tons of others. Heck, 90% of Taylormade's staff played cast this year and they have a large staff. The two most used wedges on tour by a HUGE margin are both cast.
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
I clearly stated in my first post that in wedges I cannot tell the difference, and in a later post I said I think this is beacause wedges are usually made from softer materials and more attention is given to them because they are your scoring clubs, these are the clubs you have the most confidence in, the clubs that u use to get out of trouble to save par, maybe it has something to do with weighting, as I stated earlier, maybe it has something to do with how small the heads on blades usually are and that more attention is given to turf interaction, but in MY OPINION, no one can tell me they don't feel the difference in let's say a Calloway hot 24 iron, the one with Orange and a Mizuno blade, maybe if OEMs put the same effort they put into wedges and players irons, then this wouldn't be my FEELING on this topic.
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- #216
Different metals, different shape, different weighting.
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
If you cant feel it in wedges, its probably because the contact is less blunt due to the loft of the club.
and youre comparing blades and cavities, not casting to forging. If you compare the HB3s to the MX-950s, other that the shape of the clubhead, will you feel a difference?
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
Whos getting paid? Im not. I want to get paid to play clubs. Where do I sign?
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- #220
right under my name, because I'm signing up too
johnnymo
New member
That is the exact person that I was thinking about when I made my last post.
I think we can agree that the design of the club is the biggest difference between a "players" and GI club. "Players" clubs generally are forged but as of yet I have not seen any quantitative evidence for why forged is better. Can they be manufactured with tighter tolerances? Due to the method of manufacturing are they able to achieve different density levels? Is there any evidence that is not subjective and can move the discussion out of realm of qualitative data?
I think TM is putting three sets of forged irons in next years line so I think it would be a safe bet that a good portion of their stable will be gaming forged irons next year.
john
CharlieMoy
Well-known member
He didnt incinuate JB gets paid to play certain clubs did he? Because that would go against the entire foundation and integrity of this place
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- #223
Im not sure I would say that. Not all players clubs are forged at all. R9 TP, Ping S line, Callaway Razr Tour, Cleveland CG7 Tour, etc...
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- #224
I didnt take it as that. But if someone knows where to sign up, I might sell out in a minute.