The Official NFL 2010 Thread [Spoilers]

[PiratePenguin]

was he murdering other peoples dogs? I thought they were just having dog fights...as in, I bring my star pit bull and you bring yours. Am I wrong here?

Disclaimer: I am a HUGE animal lover so I completely disagree with what he did, and I am not a vick fan, but he sure did play a hell of a game last night

As I understand it that was the case - you have dogs specifically for fighting. However, I think people have a bigger problem with also having weaker dogs that you use to train the pit bulls on and those usually die during the training.

 

[GrantD]

I am not a big Vick fan and have never been. I guess it was because he played for Atlanta, a rival of the Panthers. I would have a hard time not rooting for him if he came to Carolina (Which we do need a QB!) and took us to the super bowl.

 

[Kmac]

I think I actually disliked Vick more BEFORE when he played for Atlanta then I do now. He was a lazy player that got paid big money and never played up to his pay check. Couldnt stand him and his attitude.

 

[One-T]

I heard they were stealing peoples dogs and using them as trainers for the pitts.

gotcha, I didnt know that part.

One-T he was having the dog fights at his home as I recall the story.

right, he owned the home, but he didnt live there, he had bought it for some friends as I recall.

As I understand it that was the case - you have dogs specifically for fighting. However, I think people have a bigger problem with also having weaker dogs that you use to train the pit bulls on and those usually die during the training.

right, I just had no clue they were stealing dogs to train theirs with.

 

[JB]

Anyone can turn their life around. Society often doesn't want to give them a chance, however. I grew up in a rural area where there was still dog fighting, cock fights, etc. It was part of the culture for a segment of the population and had been for hundreds of years. That doesn't make it right, but it does make it reality. We can look in from the outside all we want from our moral high ground (and it is certainly the high ground in this case - I don't debate that for a second) but that doesn't change their reality. Just as 200 years ago some people could look down on slavery and ask how could anyone possibly think owning another human being was something one could even consider - but for most every society on earth slavery was a fact of life that had existed for thousands of years, not just African slaves in America. It took time to change the reality for the people involved. Communism is reality for people all over the world even today and we can ask ourselves how on earth they can allow it to still happen - but it does. Things take time to truly change sometimes. And sometimes it changes one person at a time. If Mike Vick now realizes how terrible dog fighting is and can perhaps help make a larger change in that portion of society - great! Why hold him down and prevent him from being a positive force for change now? That is counter-productive. If you want dog fighting to go the way of slavery then you need people like Vick who have seen the light to be part of the change, not continually beat them down and hold them back.

So again, I ask, shouldnt this be the same for all crimes? Or is it because someone is around something growing up, it should be understood and accepted? People grow up in bad situations or around illegal and immoral acts all the time. That does not mean they themselves have to take part. Then lie about it. Then lie about it again. Was he also around a porn star named Ron Mexico? I suppose the drugs in the water bottle was because he was around drugs growing up too right? So which one is actually this guys second chance? I mean hasnt he already had about 9 chances based on his wonderful dealings since becoming a star?

Listen, I was around this guy personally for multiple years. I keep that side out of all of these debates. And will continue to. But his acts are disgusting if you ask me. And people should and do get second chances. However I do not think they should get 5th and 6th chances just because it was part of their culture.

 

[PiratePenguin]

So again, I ask, shouldnt this be the same for all crimes? Or is it because someone is around something growing up, it should be understood and accepted? People grow up in bad situations or around illegal and immoral acts all the time. That does not mean they themselves have to take part. Then lie about it. Then lie about it again. Was he also around a porn star named Ron Mexico? I suppose the drugs in the water bottle was because he was around drugs growing up too right? So which one is actually this guys second chance? I mean hasnt he already had about 9 chances based on his wonderful dealings since becoming a star?

Listen, I was around this guy personally for multiple years. I keep that side out of all of these debates. And will continue to. But his acts are disgusting if you ask me. And people should and do get second chances. However I do not think they should get 5th and 6th chances just because it was part of their culture.

He was also a spoiled teenager/immature early 20-something during most of that. Who amongst us didn't do at least a few stupid things when we were that young? Who amongst us wouldn't have been even dumber if we had millions of dollars and fame and no real responsibility? He seems to have grown up now and applaud him for that. I don't agree with any of his past actions. I'm just saying that if he has truly changed then good for him and I would hold the past against him going forward if he stays clean.

Fred Taylor had problems while in school at Florida and early on in the NFL but he quickly grew up and became an upstanding person and player. He grew up. I'm sure there are scores of examples on every team where the same thing happens. Some wash out, some grow up. If Vick has truly grown up then bully for him.

 

[Smallville]

right, I just had no clue they were stealing dogs to train theirs with.

It happens everywhere. And believe it or not, there is probably dogfighting going on near you, if not in your own neighborhood. Scumbags don't think twice about getting someone else's dog for free instead of buying them on their own since it's going to be dead soon anyway. (Not that that would make it any better!) If you're dog is in the backyard (and ours have free reign since we have a dog door; they come and go as they please) put a lock on your gates. I'd hate to think of my dogs being used as bait dogs. A lock on my gate is no big deal since I simply get the key when I need it. The only problem is when I have to let the meter reader in. When I know they will be coming around I'll try to remember to unlock the gate. Otherwise they just estimate the bill.

And if he didn't realize how terrible dogfighting is, why did he/they hide the operation and lie when he was caught?

This is all old news and sorry for taking this off of the actual NFL and turning it into a debate, perhaps we should get back to the NFL now!

 

[JB]

He was also a spoiled teenager/immature early 20-something during most of that. Who amongst us didn't do at least a few stupid things when we were that young? Who amongst us wouldn't have been even dumber if we had millions of dollars and fame and no real responsibility? He seems to have grown up now and applaud him for that. I don't agree with any of his past actions. I'm just saying that if he has truly changed then good for him and I would hold the past against him going forward if he stays clean.

Fred Taylor had problems while in school at Florida and early on in the NFL but he quickly grew up and became an upstanding person and player. He grew up. I'm sure there are scores of examples on every team where the same thing happens. Some wash out, some grow up. If Vick has truly grown up then bully for him.

Where have I ever said that he will not change or has not changed? What I said was that people keep saying 2nd chances. This is NOT 2nd chances. He has used those already. The guy has allegedly been involved with about 5 other incidents. Were they as severe as killing MANY dogs? No. Should they just be erased from memory? Not mine. I am all for second chances, ONCE SOMEONE earns them. Playing well on the field does NOT earn anything from me. ONLY time heals wounds.

As you said Fred Taylor grew up after getting in trouble. Mike Vick had not. Even after getting caught, he was lying about it, until his buddies flipped on him. Did prison time make him grow up? I hope so, but I dont have to like the guy, respect the guy, or even hope he is alive.

 

[One-T]

It happens everywhere. And believe it or not, there is probably dogfighting going on near you, if not in your own neighborhood. Scumbags don't think twice about getting someone else's dog for free instead of buying them on their own since it's going to be dead soon anyway. (Not that that would make it any better!) If you're dog is in the backyard (and ours have free reign since we have a dog door; they come and go as they please) put a lock on your gates. I'd hate to think of my dogs being used as bait dogs. A lock on my gate is no big deal since I simply get the key when I need it. The only problem is when I have to let the meter reader in. When I know they will be coming around I'll try to remember to unlock the gate. Otherwise they just estimate the bill.

And if he didn't realize how terrible dogfighting is, why did he/they hide the operation and lie when he was caught?

This is all old news and sorry for taking this off of the actual NFL and turning it into a debate, perhaps we should get back to the NFL now!

Thanks buddy, yeah I knew dog fighting happens, I just didnt know about them taking other peoples dogs for training. I have t2 dogs, hell, my wife treats them better than me...hehe. I have no smpathy for Vick, yeah he served his time, but he still did what he did and for me, its hard to forgive. But, are we not taught to forgive? sorry to take the conversation this route. I dont like the guy, but my beliefs tell me to forgive.

Where have I ever said that he will not change or has not changed? What I said was that people keep saying 2nd chances. This is NOT 2nd chances. He has used those already. The guy has allegedly been involved with about 5 other incidents. Were they as severe as killing MANY dogs? No. Should they just be erased from memory? Not mine. I am all for second chances, ONCE SOMEONE earns them. Playing well on the field does NOT earn anything from me. ONLY time heals wounds.

As you said Fred Taylor grew up after getting in trouble. Mike Vick had not. Even after getting caught, he was lying about it, until his buddies flipped on him. Did prison time make him grow up? I hope so, but I dont have to like the guy, respect the guy, or even hope he is alive.

yeah he has had many chances in his life. He got busted bringing pot in an airport...REALLY??? I hear his brother is just as bad as he is

 

[Esox]

Vick's a bad guy. Great talent, terrible person. He's got years and years and years of proving he's a good guy before he can be forgiven. Lots of guys grow up in tough situations. When he starts saving dogs, helping kids, and doing a ton of other stuff to help people, of his OWN volition, instead of because his agent told him to, then he begins to get a break. Emphasis on begins.

Hell, Donald Driver lived in a dumpster or some such thing when he was a kid, and his father was recently murdered. He's been nothing been an exemplary guy his whole life. Goes to hosptials, etc, all on his own. I just mention him off the top of my head because he's a Packer, but there are lots of others.

 

[JRod]

Edit. People have their opinions and they aren't gonna change.

 

[JB]

Not a valid comparison pedophiles have the highest reoccurance rate and has been proven there is a 98% failure rate in rehabilitation attempts .

And what are your statistics on dog killers, that have 5 or so bad acts already in the past 10 years?

I'm with esox. Guys a scumbag and had been for years. If someone wants to root for that kind of person, that is their choice. I wouldnt, and that is my choice.

 

[JRod]

And what are your statistics on dog killers, that have 5 or so bad acts already in the past 10 years?

I'm with esox. Guys a scumbag and had been for years. If someone wants to root for that kind of person, that is their choice. I wouldnt, and that is my choice.

I agree 100% with this so let's just leave it at thAt. People have opinions they are entitled.to and everyone is different . I'm not gonna change you and you aren't gonna change me, its that simple . How about we move on down the road to a more productive conversation.

 

[Tmex]

Here is a good story...

http://nfl.fanhouse.com/2010/11/16/ex-jaguar-richard-collier-makes-most-important-stand/

Pretty cool stuff and I'll keep rooting for this guy.

 

[Smallville]

Thanks buddy, yeah I knew dog fighting happens, I just didnt know about them taking other peoples dogs for training. I have t2 dogs, hell, my wife treats them better than me...hehe. I have no smpathy for Vick, yeah he served his time, but he still did what he did and for me, its hard to forgive. But, are we not taught to forgive? sorry to take the conversation this route. I dont like the guy, but my beliefs tell me to forgive.

Hey One-T, only the first line was directed to you! And what I meant was the part about them stealing other people's dogs.The rest was just a rant. Someone mentioned earlier

If Mike Vick now realizes how terrible dog fighting is and can perhaps help make a larger change in that portion of society - great!

and that was what the second part was about.

I'm sorry if you thought that was all directed at you because it wasn't.

 

[Chunkylover77]

How is that outlandish? Some consider dogs their kids. So someone murders their dogs, and does their time, its the same thing to many. Extreme acts of violence that one serves their time for. So again, someone that does this act can turn their life around, but others acts cannot?

I don't see how a pet and a child can be in the same category. Not even remotely.

Edit: Late to conversation and perhaps we should just move on. I will agree that Vick is scum though.

 

[JB]

I don't see how a pet and a child can be in the same category. Not even remotely.

Edit: Late to conversation and perhaps we should just move on. I will agree that Vick is scum though.

Some people dont or cant have children. For that they have pets. It does not mean they should or do love them any less.

 

[TC]

Some people dont or cant have children. For that they have pets. It does not mean they should or do love them any less.

i agree dude, but it's just different. it's hard to explain but it's not something that one who doesn't/or can't have a kid can understand. there's more science and biology involved. i've been thinking about this all day and i guess my thing with michael vick is that the dude did something horrible, he was convicted, he served his time, and now he's an nfl quarterback. and the michael vick that is playing now isn't necessarily the michael vick that we knew before all of this. he's no saint, nor a role model, nor a person to look up to, but as a quarterback last night, he was phenomenal.

 

[Chunkylover77]

My last post was taken possibly in the wrong way and after rereading it I just want to clarify what I meant. JB you had mentioned pedophiles and dog killers as being somewhat comparable. I simply meant my response as in the eyes of the law I don't see how kids and pets can be in the same category. Did not mean to belittle anyone who is an animal lover and as I said I do think Vick is a low life scumbag. I don't know why I post in this thread as I've gotten in trouble with a prior post in here to WR and I'm sure he's still a bit peeved at me. Sorry to anyone who took offense as it was in no way meant to offend. More of a discussion about the law which has no place in a thread about football. Sooo how bout dem cowboys?!!

 

[White Rhino]

My last post was taken possibly in the wrong way and after rereading it I just want to clarify what I meant. JB you had mentioned pedophiles and dog killers as being somewhat comparable. I simply meant my response as in the eyes of the law I don't see how kids and pets can be in the same category. Did not mean to belittle anyone who is an animal lover and as I said I do think Vick is a low life scumbag. I don't know why I post in this thread as I've gotten in trouble with a prior post in here to WR and I'm sure he's still a bit peeved at me. Sorry to anyone who took offense as it was in no way meant to offend. More of a discussion about the law which has no place in a thread about football. Sooo how bout dem cowboys?!!

Not at all my friend!!! Not at all!! And your Cowboys finally looked like a team everyone thought they would be when they kicked my Giants's ass this past weekend. I wonder now how many wins the Cowboys will end up with.

 

[JB]

i agree dude, but it's just different. it's hard to explain but it's not something that one who doesn't/or can't have a kid can understand. there's more science and biology involved. i've been thinking about this all day and i guess my thing with michael vick is that the dude did something horrible, he was convicted, he served his time, and now he's an nfl quarterback. and the michael vick that is playing now isn't necessarily the michael vick that we knew before all of this. he's no saint, nor a role model, nor a person to look up to, but as a quarterback last night, he was phenomenal.

TC, I dont disagree with anything you said. However to put things in perspective, this is the same person that made the wonderful apology of his "error in judgement" after his airport thing. Time heals all wounds and no matter how great someone is, does not mean I have to root for him or respect him at all. I cannot fathom rooting for someone like this no matter what helmut he puts on. I feel the same about many of the players that the Bucs have signed over the last 5 years and it keeps me from rooting for them all the time.

However let me give a little story about how someone can become attached to a dog. Our little girl Ellie was rescued by us after she was found wandering the interstate weighing less than 5 lbs and malnourished. She was microchipped and her chip led to them breaking down a dog fighting ring in Miami. She had wandered the interestate for 124 miles before being taken by animal control where she was cared for. She was badly beaten and had bite marks in her side where she was shown to have been used as a bait dog. She was 10 months old at the time.

I rescued her and brought her home and that dog has been through a lot. She smiles at me when things are rough and it tells me no matter what, everything will be okay. She has been hit by a car, been through 2 major surgeries, and will be a special needs animal, the rest of her life.

All of this because some piece of sh!t stole a group of puppies to train his dogs to kill and when they did not kill Ellie, he drowned them in his bathtub.

Sorry, I look at this girl and everything she has gone through the same way a parent would look at their children. She is part of my life and we live our lives differently because of her special needs.

 

[Smallville]

Anything I have to say pales in comparison to that. A lot of people know my Bandit story, but this one of yours JB trumps that!

 

[TC]

i'm not discounting how much you love your little ellie man, not at all. i love my pets, always have, always will, i'm just saying that there's something different when it involves your genetics, that's all. i believe that all things were created equal and that all things should be respected. i'm glad you found ellie.

 

[Chunkylover77]

Not at all my friend!!! Not at all!! And your Cowboys finally looked like a team everyone thought they would be when they kicked my Giants's ass this past weekend. I wonder now how many wins the Cowboys will end up with.

Thanks WR. As I said in the PM that had been bugging me. Funny thing is I was hoping the Cowboys would play better but I was also hoping for a loss. At this point anything less than a SB is a disappoint IMO for the Cowboys and I would rather get the best possible draft pick then a few meaningless W's. Classic trap game for the G-men and I expect them to go on and probably represent the NFC in Cowboys stadium.

 

[JB]

Thanks WR. As I said in the PM that had been bugging me. Funny thing is I was hoping the Cowboys would play better but I was also hoping for a loss. At this point anything less than a SB is a disappoint IMO for the Cowboys and I would rather get the best possible draft pick then a few meaningless W's. Classic trap game for the G-men and I expect them to go on and probably represent the NFC in Cowboys stadium.

Care to go double or nothing on that lunch you owe me? hehe