We've launched the new forums! Read more here

Official MLB Baseball Thread

Status
Not open for further replies.
Spank818 said:
I never debated that the Yankees spend more than any other team. We do... we admit it. But it will never end the fact that there are those that hate the Yankees for what they do. We get it and we accept it. Just don't make this generalization that there should be no Yankee fans or that we buy championships. Every champion in the last couple of years had to have "bought" a championship to a degree whether it was to retain their players or players they obtained through FA or trades. The Yankees just spend more and that's why the Yankees are the core of that discussion every time.
Click to expand...

Not true! The debate a decade ago was great because Yankees fans always said "we won our titles with our own players". They dont have that excuse anymore. Look at the last few WS winners. They were teams full of home grown talent....EXCEPT NY.

I just dont get it. If you are a Yankee fan and proud of the money that they spend and proud to sign the latest savior, what do you care if people say you buy championships. Its clear that you bought last years. So what? So what if your payroll is double everybody else (exageration, but not by much).

The fact is that they do spend the most. They do overpay other teams players. They do buy championships. If you love that, great, but accept the fact that they DID it.
 
JB said:
Not true! The debate a decade ago was great because Yankees fans always said "we won our titles with our own players". They dont have that excuse anymore. Look at the last few WS winners. They were teams full of home grown talent....EXCEPT NY.

I just dont get it. If you are a Yankee fan and proud of the money that they spend and proud to sign the latest savior, what do you care if people say you buy championships. Its clear that you bought last years. So what? So what if your payroll is double everybody else (exageration, but not by much).

The fact is that they do spend the most. They do overpay other teams players. They do buy championships. If you love that, great, but accept the fact that they DID it.
Click to expand...

JB, I don't love the situation that baseball is in. I care that there are folks out there that defame what the Yankees are about all because the generalization of they spend the most money therefore whenever they win a WS it must have been bought. Ok, last year, yes we signed a whole lot of free agents. If you call that buying a WS then so be it. The question is are we the only ones doing it? I will stop if you can tell me that there is no other team in the last couple of years, other than the Yankees, that have bought a championship.

Ok so if there was another or two that did buy a championship then why is the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Yankees? Blame baseball's issues on the governing bodies and not on one team. They are all in the same boat. I could be less of a person and make you admit that there are teams out there that are too cheap to spend for quality players or even keep their own talent, but I won't go that route because I know that the issue lies somewhere else on a grander level and not solely on one thing.

And why do we have to defend ourselves... because everyone always criticizes us. When someone criticizes you, you would answer back right? It's the same for Yankee fans. I have never said the Yankees were right in what they were doing nor am I ever going to force you to say that they DIDN'T do it. That would be childish.

Look at the whole picture is all I ask and place blame accordingly, which the Yankees ARE a part of no question about it.
 
Another thought is that the Mets have the second largest salary in baseball and don't usually do very well. Using the NHL of old, it is like the New York Rangers (See the pattern New York :act-up:) They would always shell out a ton of money with no results.
There is a lot to be said about team work as well. You can't just go out and buy a team. They have to work together.
 
Islander said:
Another thought is that the Mets have the second largest salary in baseball and don't usually do very well. Using the NHL of old, it is like the New York Rangers (See the pattern New York :act-up:) They would always shell out a ton of money with no results.
There is a lot to be said about team work as well. You can't just go out and buy a team. They have to work together.
Click to expand...

Exactly, so like spank mentioned earlier this who "Yankees buy championships" is nonsense. Every off season teams go into freeagency to try to buy players to get hem a championship. Sometimes it works. ( Yankees last year, also Boston with Dice-K before their championship 2007 season) some times it doesn't. (Mets are a great example) This arguement is one that will never end, you have two sides that firmly believe what they believe and until the system is fixed this will never change.
 
I would like to see a salary floor long before a cap is set. I still have problems with these owners pocketing the money from revenue sharing and claiming they are re-investing it in scouting and development. Im calling BS.
If anything I would like to see a global draft and maybe a slotting system so teams like the Astros could actually sign their picks.
 
Spank818 said:
JB, I don't love the situation that baseball is in. I care that there are folks out there that defame what the Yankees are about all because the generalization of they spend the most money therefore whenever they win a WS it must have been bought. Ok, last year, yes we signed a whole lot of free agents. If you call that buying a WS then so be it. The question is are we the only ones doing it? I will stop if you can tell me that there is no other team in the last couple of years, other than the Yankees, that have bought a championship.

Ok so if there was another or two that did buy a championship then why is the blame squarely on the shoulders of the Yankees? Blame baseball's issues on the governing bodies and not on one team. They are all in the same boat. I could be less of a person and make you admit that there are teams out there that are too cheap to spend for quality players or even keep their own talent, but I won't go that route because I know that the issue lies somewhere else on a grander level and not solely on one thing.

And why do we have to defend ourselves... because everyone always criticizes us. When someone criticizes you, you would answer back right? It's the same for Yankee fans. I have never said the Yankees were right in what they were doing nor am I ever going to force you to say that they DIDN'T do it. That would be childish.

Look at the whole picture is all I ask and place blame accordingly, which the Yankees ARE a part of no question about it.
Click to expand...

I already said that baseball is a sham and that the Marlins bought the world series on 2 different occasions. They proved that baseball is a joke because within months of winning their rings, they sold off the team.

Certainly there are cheap owners. There always will be. But you keep saying that other teams spend money too. Sure they do, but have you looked at the salaries lately? Nobody is even close to the Yankees. For those that have not, here it is in 2009.


1. New York Yankees $201,449,289 $7,748,050
2. New York Mets $135,773,988 $4,849,071
3. Chicago Cubs $135,050,000 $5,402,000
4. Boston Red Sox $122,696,000 $4,089,867
5. Detroit Tigers $115,085,145 $4,110,184
6. Los Angeles Angels $113,709,000 $4,061,036
7. Philadelphia Phillies $113,004,048 $4,185,335
8. Houston Astros $102,996,415 $3,814,682
9. Los Angeles Dodgers $100,458,101 $4,018,324
10. Seattle Mariners $98,904,167 $3,532,292
11. Atlanta Braves $96,726,167 $3,335,385
12. Chicago White Sox $96,068,500 $3,694,942
13. St. Louis Cardinals $88,528,411 $3,278,830
14. San Francisco Giants $82,161,450 $3,043,017
15. Cleveland Indians $81,625,567 $3,023,169
16. Toronto Blue Jays $80,993,657 $2,892,631
17. Milwaukee Brewers $79,857,502 $3,194,300
18. Colorado Rockies $75,201,000 $2,785,222
19. Arizona Diamondbacks $73,571,667 $2,724,877
20. Cincinnati Reds $70,968,500 $2,957,021
21. Kansas City Royals $70,908,333 $2,727,244
22. Texas Rangers $68,646,023 $2,367,104
23. Baltimore Orioles $67,101,667 $2,580,833
24. Minnesota Twins $65,299,267 $2,251,699
25. Tampa Bay Rays $63,313,035 $2,183,208
26. Oakland Athletics $62,310,000 $2,225,357
27. Nationals $59,328,000 $2,045,793
28. Pirates $48,743,000 $1,874,731
29. San Diego Padres $42,796,700 $1,528,454
30. Florida Marlins $36,814,000 $1,314,786

Does something look interesting. Those that spent won (on average) and those that didnt lost (again on average). There average salary is close to double what any other team is in baseball and that was last year, this year is even higher.

You are missing posts in this thread clearly, because where in the world did I ever blame the Yankees. I blame the system over and over again. But I also say that they are the worst offenders. And I dont want to hear "why do we have to defend ourselves". Once again you clearly have missed my posts, where I said why the heck are you defending yourself? Who cares. Just say, yeah we bought our championships, yeah we spend more, yeah it is what it is. WHo cares!

The point that has been made over and over again is that MOST baseball fans outside of larger markets do not really care about the sport anymore. Have you seen regional numbers recently? The national ratings are great because they basically only show the wealthy teams on TV, the regional ratings are terrible. Until its fixed, you will find 20 teams each year that have not shot.

The easiest way to fix it is contraction, but that of course wont happen because the MLB union, the same one that opposes drug testing, loses salaries. Shorter seasons, less teams, salary caps, etc...The list is endless and has been written about and complained about by fans and writers outside of NY and LA for the last 2 decades. We all know that its in the rules, but what was once Americas Game is now more of a joke in that only a handful of teams can compete year after year.

They are the only major US sport that goes against it, and if you believe that its because of other teams, I have a bridge for sale. If the Yankees agreed to salary floors and caps, it would be done within a year. It would take a lockout, but it would get done. Look at what Costas said about it.

Make the floor 65 million and the cap 100 million. Within 5 years ticket prices would be cheaper, families could go to the games again, contracts would not be absurd, etc...

The only argument for it is from huge cities that have huge local contracts, there is no other argument for it. Every other team outside of NY, BOS, CHI, LA, and a few others CANNOT compete regularly.
 
I'll always be a baseball fan, because I love the game. I grew up w/ baseball. My dad groomed me to learn that sport before any other, and I did grow up to play it well into my adult years.

It's really too bad what's been going on w/ professional ball for the last 15 years or so. The parity is almost non existent, and money dominates. That's not what the game should be about.

Not terribly long ago, the good teams were the ones who were good at developing players. They were good at scouting and drafting players who would mature to be good pro players. They had good GM's who made good, smart trades and spent the limited amount of money, wisely.

Today, a few teams hardly need to follow any of that. Money can erase a few bad decisions by a GM. Money can erase a couple bad years of drafting young talent. Money can erase not having much talent in the minor leagues.

Why worry about developing, scouting, and drafting well when money can make up for it?

Why worry about all of that stuff when you can let other teams worry about it? And when those other teams can no longer afford that big time talent that they scouted, drafted, and groomed, you can swoop in there and get him w/ all of your money.

J. Santana is a situation that I know of very well, and is a perfect example.

But, for the Yankee fans out there. I never said you shouldn't or can't be a fan of them. I just want to make sure that you know what you're rooting for.
 
NikeGolf said:
I'll always be a baseball fan, because I love the game. I grew up w/ baseball. My dad groomed me to learn that sport before any other, and I did grow up to play it well into my adult years.

It's really too bad what's been going on w/ professional ball for the last 15 years or so. The parity is almost non existent, and money dominates. That's not what the game should be about.

Not terribly long ago, the good teams were the ones who were good at developing players. They were good at scouting and drafting players who would mature to be good pro players. They had good GM's who made good, smart trades and spent the limited amount of money, wisely.

Today, a few teams hardly need to follow any of that. Money can erase a few bad decisions by a GM. Money can erase a couple bad years of drafting young talent. Money can erase not having much talent in the minor leagues.

Why worry about developing, scouting, and drafting well when money can make up for it?

Why worry about all of that stuff when you can let other teams worry about it? And when those other teams can no longer afford that big time talent that they scouted, drafted, and groomed, you can swoop in there and get him w/ all of your money.

J. Santana is a situation that I know of very well, and is a perfect example.

But, for the Yankee fans out there. I never said you shouldn't or can't be a fan of them. I just want to make sure that you know what you're rooting for.
Click to expand...

And what is that?
 
JB said:
The only argument for it is from huge cities that have huge local contracts, there is no other argument for it. Every other team outside of NY, BOS, CHI, LA, and a few others CANNOT compete regularly.
Click to expand...

Philly has been doing well lately, Atlanta had a 10+ year run. It is not they can not, it is they CHOOSE not to. That is the big difference that Yankee haters miss. Places like Baltimore/WashingDC and San Diego are very large TV markets but the teams dont want to spend the money. In the case of San Diego, they have their own cable channel much like the Yankees. A new stadium, again much like the Yankees but the refuse to spend the money.
 
White Rhino said:
And what is that?
Click to expand...

To me, you're partly rooting for what's wrong w/ baseball.

You're partly rooting for the demise of the "small" teams. The demise of how to do things the right way and win, without the need for a ton of money.
 
NikeGolf said:
To me, you're partly rooting for what's wrong w/ baseball.

You're partly rooting for the demise of the "small" teams. The demise of how to do things the right way and win, without the need for a ton of money.
Click to expand...

You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion differs as I stated in my response above to JB. Like I said earlier, those that are not Yankee fans will always take the approach of saying it is all the Yankees fault. If blame is to be dealt out fairly it should go to the people that are the root of the problem, players, agents, other owners. There are more to blame than just the Yankees. Last year I believe the Yankees kicked back I think $50-75 million back to the "less fortunate" teams in the league in form of a tax. What did these teams do with the money? The Marlins still have a roster valued greatly below the average, the Padres also. And the Padres are in the 6th or 7th largest TV market in the country. Still all the Yankees fault? If you are jealous of the way the Yankees do business or if you hate them cause they always kick your teams a$$ they say that is why you don't like them. But don't say they are causeing the downfall of baseball.

Albert Puljos, widely recognized as the best player in the game right now. His contract is due at the end of the season amd he could fetch $20 million+ per season from any of the "big market players" like Yankees or Mets, etc. He said this offseason he wants to stay in mid market St. Louis. Because of that the team went out and paid to get Holliday ( over paid if you ask me but that is another discussion) to protect Albert. Let's see what happens now. Does he stay for less? Does he go for the money? He'd make a nice 1b and #3 hitter on the Mets.
 
White Rhino said:
You are certainly entitled to your opinion. My opinion differs as I stated in my response above to JB. Like I said earlier, those that are not Yankee fans will always take the approach of saying it is all the Yankees fault. If blame is to be dealt out fairly it should go to the people that are the root of the problem, players, agents, other owners. There are more to blame than just the Yankees. Last year I believe the Yankees kicked back I think $50-75 million back to the "less fortunate" teams in the league in form of a tax. What did these teams do with the money? The Marlins still have a roster valued greatly below the average, the Padres also. And the Padres are in the 6th or 7th largest TV market in the country. Still all the Yankees fault? If you are jealous of the way the Yankees do business or if you hate them cause they always kick your teams a$$ they say that is why you don't like them. But don't say they are causeing the downfall of baseball.

Albert Puljos, widely recognized as the best player in the game right now. His contract is due at the end of the season amd he could fetch $20 million+ per season from any of the "big market players" like Yankees or Mets, etc. He said this offseason he wants to stay in mid market St. Louis. Because of that the team went out and paid to get Holliday ( over paid if you ask me but that is another discussion) to protect Albert. Let's see what happens now. Does he stay for less? Does he go for the money? He'd make a nice 1b and #3 hitter on the Mets.
Click to expand...

I know what you're saying and I know it's not all of the Yankees fault.

However, when they spend WELL over anyone else, and are in the conversation to get about any player if and when they want them, it gets to the point that it's ridiculous.

The Yankees themselves aren't what's wrong w/ baseball, but they are the ones who are taking the most and biggest advantage.

And for that alone, I, nor will many others, be a fan of them and for how they do things.
 
NikeGolf said:
I know what you're saying and I know it's not all of the Yankees fault.

However, when they spend WELL over anyone else, and are in the conversation to get about any player if and when they want them, it gets to the point that it's ridiculous.

The Yankees themselves aren't what's wrong w/ baseball, but they are the ones who are taking the most and biggest advantage.
And for that alone, I, nor will many others, be a fan of them and for how they do things.
Click to expand...

And also the ones who corntibute back to the other teams to allow them similar opportunities but they dont take it.

I do understand your point and JB's as well and I am not doing this to be a hard a$$ but what you see as ruining the game I see as they are being aggressive in the way they go to business. Same as a company or orgaization does in their own field of business.
 
NikeGolf said:
How can anyone like the Yankees? I don't get it. They buy whoever they want. Their roster is an all star squad.
Click to expand...

NikeGolf said:
But, for the Yankee fans out there. I never said you shouldn't or can't be a fan of them. I just want to make sure that you know what you're rooting for.
Click to expand...

You did say it. Any thing else you care to add?
 
I'm not a fan of the Yankees or Red Sox but I do like to watch them play, good thing too or I wouldn't get to watch much baseball since it seems they are on all the time. LOL

I agree that baseball needs to change but until they do I can't blame the Yankees for doing whatever it takes to stay at the top.
 
MO_Hacker said:
I'm not a fan of the Yankees or Red Sox but I do like to watch them play, good thing too or I wouldn't get to watch much baseball since it seems they are on all the time. LOL

I agree that baseball needs to change but until they do I can't blame the Yankees for doing whatever it takes to stay at the top.
Click to expand...



Finally, a hater who sees beyond the hatred to the facts!
 
White Rhino said:
Finally, a hater who sees beyond the hatred to the facts!
Click to expand...

Have you read the posts in this thread? I think everybody is saying the exact same thing.
 
JB said:
Have you read the posts in this thread? I think everybody is saying the exact same thing.
Click to expand...

Except for Nike, he blasted the Yankee fans and then retreated and said he didn't say it. Where have we seen that before?
 
White Rhino said:
I said that 4 pages ago JB but you kept saying t was the Yankees fault for the problem.
Click to expand...

No, what I said was that they COULD fix the problem if they wanted to.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top