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Now Watson calls Tiger out

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JB said:
So let me see if I get this right. According to you, if you have an opinion and are in a spotlight type of position, you must keep it to yourself.

And if you are extremely talented in a certain field you get a pass?

The weight of golf? You must be kidding. WHile he was and is the best, I still see tournaments going on right now. He is the biggest draw, but millions still watch it every week whether he is there or not.

And lastly, your argument is that since you have a bunch of people admire and throw themselves at you, you are allowed less morals? The vows that you took mean nothing?

I am amazed that this started off as a good debate and has turned into nothing more than fandom and hero worship so quickly.
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Yes, the weight of golf.

TV ratings with and without Tiger

Tiger's impact, money wise, on the PGA Tour

Tiger's impact on generating interest in golf

I would say Tiger has had a greater impact on golf than any other golfer in history, easily. Bringing in advertisers, TV viewers, gallery audiences, people who otherwise wouldn't pay attention to golf, and, most of all MONEY. Hell, they're calling this the "Tiger recession" in golf.

I would say a pretty good weight of the sport was and is on Tiger's shoulders. It has been for quite some time.

So no, I'm not kidding about that.

I keep hearing that this is a gentlemans game. You can't show much emotion. You play by the rules, act professionaly, sign your card and thats that. Tiger gets blasted for his bouts of anger and showing emotion. People look down on him for not being friendly enough, etc etc. Yet, when another professional calls another one out, thats alright? It's just Tom speaking his mind, right?

Two wrongs here don't make a right. Tom was in the wrong to say anything. If the Tour wants to do something about Tiger, let them. It's not very "gentleman" like to call someone out when it has nothing to do w/ you.

I know I, and many on this forum would pay attention to and still watch golf with or without Tiger. We're called serious golf fans. What about the millions of average Joe's who could be swayed to either watch or not? Without Tiger to root for or against, that average Joe isn't watching.

You think the average Joe is going to get interested in golf watching guys like Stricker, Singh, Goosen, and Furyk all day long?

Yeah right.

But, in hearing Tom and some others, even in this forum, golf needs to be nothing but guys such as those. Yep, those guys w/ great "morals". Look at that Furyk out there. Golly, what great morals that guy has. I'm getting goosebumps just watching him.

The PGA Tour would turn out to be similar to the LPGA tour if it relied on guys such as those to get people excited about golf.

So, all in all, you and some may say I sound like a "hero worshiper", and full of fandom for Tiger. I see it as calling the whole situation about Tiger like it is and I think some of us need to realize what this guy means to the game in general. Because I don't think some of us do.

And that my friends is why you give a guy like Tiger a little lee-way and leave him be.
 
Yes, and we should let him move his ball out of a bad lie too if it would help him win on Sunday, because that would be good for ratings. [/sarcasm]


No one person is bigger than the game. Everyone plays by the same rules. Woods doesn't get leeway just because he's Woods.
 
Harry Longshanks said:
Yes, and we should let him move his ball out of a bad lie too if it would help him win on Sunday, because that would be good for ratings. [/sarcasm]


No one person is bigger than the game. Everyone plays by the same rules. Woods doesn't get leeway just because he's Woods.
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Where did I say Tiger is bigger than the game? I think he's the biggest in the game, of course. Where have I said Tiger should or deserves to play by different rules?

When I speak of giving Woods leeway, I'm speaking of leaving his private life alone, and getting off his back about the on the course behavior.
 
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NikeGolf said:
Yes, the weight of golf.

TV ratings with and without Tiger

Tiger's impact, money wise, on the PGA Tour

Tiger's impact on generating interest in golf

I would say Tiger has had a greater impact on golf than any other golfer in history, easily. Bringing in advertisers, TV viewers, gallery audiences, people who otherwise wouldn't pay attention to golf, and, most of all MONEY. Hell, they're calling this the "Tiger recession" in golf.

I would say a pretty good weight of the sport was and is on Tiger's shoulders. It has been for quite some time.

So no, I'm not kidding about that.

I keep hearing that this is a gentlemans game. You can't show much emotion. You play by the rules, act professionaly, sign your card and thats that. Tiger gets blasted for his bouts of anger and showing emotion. People look down on him for not being friendly enough, etc etc. Yet, when another professional calls another one out, thats alright? It's just Tom speaking his mind, right?

Two wrongs here don't make a right. Tom was in the wrong to say anything. If the Tour wants to do something about Tiger, let them. It's not very "gentleman" like to call someone out when it has nothing to do w/ you.

I know I, and many on this forum would pay attention to and still watch golf with or without Tiger. We're called serious golf fans. What about the millions of average Joe's who could be swayed to either watch or not? Without Tiger to root for or against, that average Joe isn't watching.

You think the average Joe is going to get interested in golf watching guys like Stricker, Singh, Goosen, and Furyk all day long?

Yeah right.

But, in hearing Tom and some others, even in this forum, golf needs to be nothing but guys such as those. Yep, those guys w/ great "morals". Look at that Furyk out there. Golly, what great morals that guy has. I'm getting goosebumps just watching him.

The PGA Tour would turn out to be similar to the LPGA tour if it relied on guys such as those to get people excited about golf.

So, all in all, you and some may say I sound like a "hero worshiper", and full of fandom for Tiger. I see it as calling the whole situation about Tiger like it is and I think some of us need to realize what this guy means to the game in general. Because I don't think some of us do.

And that my friends is why you give a guy like Tiger a little lee-way and leave him be.
Click to expand...

Once again, you skipped the entire point. NOBODY has once said in here that he is not the biggest out there. Or that he has not had the biggest impact.

You are clearly not old enough to remember much of hte tour before Tiger. The PGA was nothing like the LPGA and still dominated it in the ratings. You can blame others for commenting on the entire thing. But guess what, if your idol had not done anything, there would be no commentary.

If he was not throwing clubs, swearing, and in between the bare minimum of tournaments required that he plays in, making a mockery out of his image that he sold for a billion dollars, then NOBODY would be able to have an opinion.

I get it, in your mind, as long as he does not commit a crime, he gets a pass. Well you know what? That is ridiculous! Nobody is bigger than public perception. NOBODY! And to say that nobody has the right to comment on him other than his golf game is flat out one of the most absurd comments I have ever heard. Perhaps because OJ had the weight of the HBO Show First and Ten I should not comment on him either. I mean after all, he did not commit a crime according to the law, and public perception is not allowed for superior athletes.
 
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NikeGolf said:
Yes, the weight of golf.

TV ratings with and without Tiger

Tiger's impact, money wise, on the PGA Tour

Tiger's impact on generating interest in golf

I would say Tiger has had a greater impact on golf than any other golfer in history, easily. Bringing in advertisers, TV viewers, gallery audiences, people who otherwise wouldn't pay attention to golf, and, most of all MONEY. Hell, they're calling this the "Tiger recession" in golf.

I would say a pretty good weight of the sport was and is on Tiger's shoulders. It has been for quite some time.

So no, I'm not kidding about that.

I keep hearing that this is a gentlemans game. You can't show much emotion. You play by the rules, act professionaly, sign your card and thats that. Tiger gets blasted for his bouts of anger and showing emotion. People look down on him for not being friendly enough, etc etc. Yet, when another professional calls another one out, thats alright? It's just Tom speaking his mind, right?

Two wrongs here don't make a right. Tom was in the wrong to say anything. If the Tour wants to do something about Tiger, let them. It's not very "gentleman" like to call someone out when it has nothing to do w/ you.

I know I, and many on this forum would pay attention to and still watch golf with or without Tiger. We're called serious golf fans. What about the millions of average Joe's who could be swayed to either watch or not? Without Tiger to root for or against, that average Joe isn't watching.

You think the average Joe is going to get interested in golf watching guys like Stricker, Singh, Goosen, and Furyk all day long?

Yeah right.

But, in hearing Tom and some others, even in this forum, golf needs to be nothing but guys such as those. Yep, those guys w/ great "morals". Look at that Furyk out there. Golly, what great morals that guy has. I'm getting goosebumps just watching him.

The PGA Tour would turn out to be similar to the LPGA tour if it relied on guys such as those to get people excited about golf.

So, all in all, you and some may say I sound like a "hero worshiper", and full of fandom for Tiger. I see it as calling the whole situation about Tiger like it is and I think some of us need to realize what this guy means to the game in general. Because I don't think some of us do.

And that my friends is why you give a guy like Tiger a little lee-way and leave him be.
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Do you work for Nike by any chance?
;)



lest not forget that Golf is about Golf, not about Tiger.

Some people like Tiger, some dont, but there is no need to bring other players into the equation speaking about how bored you are watching them.
Its not very gentleman like as you put to call someone out when they have nothing to do with you. ;)

Ive watched golf for a long time, late 80's when i started really understanding it, and ive got a deep appreciation for the sport. Tiger has done a lot for Golf, but Golf was there before Tiger, and will be there after it. I feel people have a right to critisise Tiger, or should everyone pretend nothing happened, and feel honoured that he is back to grace our Tv screens, smooth greens, and adoring fans?


[ps: not trying to get at you Nike, just trying to put across a point]
 
NikeGolf said:
Where did I say Tiger is bigger than the game? I think he's the biggest in the game, of course. Where have I said Tiger should or deserves to play by different rules?

When I speak of giving Woods leeway, I'm speaking of leaving his private life alone, and getting off his back about the on the course behavior.
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Let Tiger off, he caused no harm to anyone.
carry on as usual, nothing to discuss here :bulgy-eyes:
 
JB said:
Once again, you skipped the entire point. NOBODY has once said in here that he is not the biggest out there. Or that he has not had the biggest impact.

You are clearly not old enough to remember much of hte tour before Tiger. The PGA was nothing like the LPGA and still dominated it in the ratings. You can blame others for commenting on the entire thing. But guess what, if your idol had not done anything, there would be no commentary.

If he was not throwing clubs, swearing, and in between the bare minimum of tournaments required that he plays in, making a mockery out of his image that he sold for a billion dollars, then NOBODY would be able to have an opinion.

I get it, in your mind, as long as he does not commit a crime, he gets a pass. Well you know what? That is ridiculous! Nobody is bigger than public perception. NOBODY! And to say that nobody has the right to comment on him other than his golf game is flat out one of the most absurd comments I have ever heard. Perhaps because OJ had the weight of the HBO Show First and Ten I should not comment on him either. I mean after all, he did not commit a crime according to the law, and public perception is not allowed for superior athletes.
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agree with that.



Im quite happy to have a tiger break, get to see more of the other players, instead of 66 Tiger shots per round, and 6-7 shots of everyone else! :act-up:
 
dynarider said:
He caused harm to his wife, kids, family, fans, supporters, the tour, sponsors, etc.
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He may have "harmed" his family and possibly his sponsors (though many are still with him), but that to me is where the notion of "harm" ends.

As far as fans, supporters, etc. are concerned, I don't know if harmed is the right word. Disappointed maybe, even disillusioned, but harmed? I don't know.

As a fan, I can't see how his actions have harmed me. I can't see how my life has been altered in any way because of what he did other than the fact that I can't watch him play golf and I have to watch the no-name parade each week because he's "laying low" right now. But other than that, I don't sense any other disruption in my life.


-JP
 
Harry Longshanks said:
(a) Arnie isn't saying anything about Tiger because he and Tiger have a personal relationship. Also, I suspect, because Arnie wants Tiger at his tournament.

(b) I don't recall Tom Watson ever having a stable of ho's that he flew to his tournaments, spent "time" with while his father was dying, crashed his car while in an Ambien (or other drug) induced haze. And Watson certainly never behaved the way Tiger does on the course. So if you have some super secret information on Tom Watson's personal indiscretions, please share. Because, as the article you linked correctly states, it was Watson's wife who left him. Not the other way around. And, as the article also states, there is no information whatsoever that Watson had an extramarital affair with his now wife. Just that they got married 2 years after his divorce.

(c) Even assuming that the two situations were identical, that doesn't mean that Watson's statements are incorrect. To claim otherwise would be the same as claiming that a former drug addict should not be able to suggest that a current drug addict to go to rehab.

(d) None of our business? Of course it is our business. Because Tiger Woods is a business. Woods marketed himself. He inserted himself into our living rooms, our malls, our supermarkets, our airports, and every other place where a TV, billboard, or magazine could be found . . . and he did it for money. Woods chose to make himself a public figure for profit. Quite a tidy profit too. He chose to open himself up to scrutiny. And the bigger the scandal, the bigger the scrutiny. If it had been one woman, one time, I might tend to agree with the sentiment that it was a family matter. But it isn't. And Woods himself wasn't particularly private about his indiscretions, so why should the public be now?

(d) Isn't it possible, just possible, that your newfound dislike of Watson is more a result of your affinity for Nike and Woods than the legitimacy of Watson's statements?


(e) What's so "interesting" about Hoosier's comment?
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I probably am dipping way the hell back in internet time by quoting the above, but you've really nailed it, Harry. I again encourage you to attend law school.
 
JB said:
Once again, you skipped the entire point. NOBODY has once said in here that he is not the biggest out there. Or that he has not had the biggest impact.

You are clearly not old enough to remember much of hte tour before Tiger. The PGA was nothing like the LPGA and still dominated it in the ratings. You can blame others for commenting on the entire thing. But guess what, if your idol had not done anything, there would be no commentary.

If he was not throwing clubs, swearing, and in between the bare minimum of tournaments required that he plays in, making a mockery out of his image that he sold for a billion dollars, then NOBODY would be able to have an opinion.

I get it, in your mind, as long as he does not commit a crime, he gets a pass. Well you know what? That is ridiculous! Nobody is bigger than public perception. NOBODY! And to say that nobody has the right to comment on him other than his golf game is flat out one of the most absurd comments I have ever heard. Perhaps because OJ had the weight of the HBO Show First and Ten I should not comment on him either. I mean after all, he did not commit a crime according to the law, and public perception is not allowed for superior athletes.
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So, you're stuck on people like me giving him a pass for the on the course behavior, is that your main point?

Well, Tiger is the richest athlete in the history of pro sports. If his behavior on the course was so bad, that wouldn't be true. If his behavior was so bad, the Tour would do something about it. I don't buy for a minute that the Tour won't touch Tiger because he's Tiger. Like I said, if it was bad enough, it would get addressed.

So, I guess my point is is that his "bad" behavior is being blown up and guys like Watson shouldn't worry about it. No, Tiger isn't above some criticism, but let the sports writers and fans handle that. No, Tiger isn't above being punished if he gets out of line. Let the Tour handle that.

When I was making my point of Tiger having the weight of golf on his shoulder, that was the extent of my point. I didn't make that point to in any way say that Tiger shouldn't be talked bad about by anyone. You questioned what I meant by that statement, and I explained.

OJ wasn't convicted of a crime, but let's get real. The guy killed two people. You sure you want to bring OJ in to this?
 
worst_shot_ever said:
I probably am dipping way the hell back in internet time by quoting the above, but you've really nailed it, Harry. I again encourage you to attend law school.
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If he was the lawyer, I was the judge who knocked his thesis down a notch when I responded to it.
 
You can change my words or leave out as much as you want. The entire point of OJ was the point of public perception. The public perception is that Tiger lied to millions of people. He took in a billion dollars on his image, not just his golf game. Dont kid yourself into thinking that it was only his golf that made him rich and famous. Sure it was big, but his image was even bigger.

But who has the right to tell people they can and cannot have an opinion of his actions? Nobody has to keep their mouth shut about how they feel. You certainly dont with your fan worship of him and neither does a HOF player that has been in his shoes to an extent.

Your basis for most of this argument is that "he is Tiger Woods, so everybody should leave him alone about his course behavior and his personal life". While in some ways its called personal life for a reason, other ways it is how he personally made his billions on his squeaky clean image. That is why people are upset. Dont kid yourself into thinking it is about anything else. People are upset because here is a guy that sold out everything he could to promote things that in the end turned out to be a complete sham.

People have the right to be upset about it. They have the right to voice their opinions. Just like you have the right to keep up the worship and fandom.
 
NikeGolf said:
If he was the lawyer, I was the judge who knocked his thesis down a notch when I responded to it.
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I think that pretty much sums up everything, the fact that you believe that!!!!
 
cocopoppyhead said:
Do you work for Nike by any chance?
;)



lest not forget that Golf is about Golf, not about Tiger.

Some people like Tiger, some dont, but there is no need to bring other players into the equation speaking about how bored you are watching them.
Its not very gentleman like as you put to call someone out when they have nothing to do with you. ;)

Ive watched golf for a long time, late 80's when i started really understanding it, and ive got a deep appreciation for the sport. Tiger has done a lot for Golf, but Golf was there before Tiger, and will be there after it. I feel people have a right to critisise Tiger, or should everyone pretend nothing happened, and feel honoured that he is back to grace our Tv screens, smooth greens, and adoring fans?


[ps: not trying to get at you Nike, just trying to put across a point]
Click to expand...

I brought other players into the equation to tell of how the average Joe wouldn't pay attention or watch golf if they had to watch guys like those play. It's just an example of what dynamic guys like Tiger do for the sport of golf.

Anyone can say whatever they want to about Tiger. It's not like I want a censor on everyone, and no one is allowed to talk bad about the guy. This thread was started because another player called Tiger out on TWO different issues. One was private, and the other was behavior. Both of which has nothing to do w/ him.

No one has to ignore anything w/ Tiger. Some people can't get enough of private life messes such as the one Tiger created. Some, like me, would rather not worry about it, allow Tiger to get things straightened out, and come back and play at a high level again. It's everyones right to say and feel however they want to on this.

But, not one true golf fan can say they DON'T want him to return. For whatever reason.
 
NikeGolf said:
Both of which has nothing to do w/ him.
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That is where you are wrong. If Tom feels the temper tantrums, the swearing, and anything else bothers the game of golf, he has every right.

If your hero had said something, I have a feeling (I should say know for sure) that you would have a different opinion.
 
I can really only call it as I see it. Tiger on the course is freak of nature who is also a crybaby, and somewhat of a poor sport... golf is filled with those types.

Off the course he is an ego maniac who didn't think twice about marketing himself to the entire world. He loves the money that it's made him, but he hates the attention that it brings.

In the end when the going got tough, instead of facing up to the mess he created, Tiger instead locked himself in the guest house where he remains to this day, eating ceral and watching cartoons... now that is some funny sh*t... unless you're a Tiger fanboi, I guess.
 
JB said:
You can change my words or leave out as much as you want. The entire point of OJ was the point of public perception. The public perception is that Tiger lied to millions of people. He took in a billion dollars on his image, not just his golf game. Dont kid yourself into thinking that it was only his golf that made him rich and famous. Sure it was big, but his image was even bigger.

But who has the right to tell people they can and cannot have an opinion of his actions? Nobody has to keep their mouth shut about how they feel. You certainly dont with your fan worship of him and neither does a HOF player that has been in his shoes to an extent.

Your basis for most of this argument is that "he is Tiger Woods, so everybody should leave him alone about his course behavior and his personal life". While in some ways its called personal life for a reason, other ways it is how he personally made his billions on his squeaky clean image. That is why people are upset. Dont kid yourself into thinking it is about anything else. People are upset because here is a guy that sold out everything he could to promote things that in the end turned out to be a complete sham.

People have the right to be upset about it. They have the right to voice their opinions. Just like you have the right to keep up the worship and fandom.
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Look, you bet. People have the right to think and feel whatever they want about Tiger. It's not like I want a censor about this. This is America, after all.

I will even agree w/ the image issue about Tiger. He rightfully took a big hit and it was no ones fault but his own. However, I haven't been arguing the point about his image, nor have I been arguing the point that NO ONE should criticize him.

I think Tiger's image will never be the same. He screwed that up, and will have to deal w/ it for the rest of his life.

He'll have to deal w/ what he did. No one is forgetting that or arguing that.

But, c'mon, he didn't kill anyone.
 
JB said:
I think that pretty much sums up everything, the fact that you believe that!!!!
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Oh, come on. I'm having a little fun w/ that.
 
JB said:
That is where you are wrong. If Tom feels the temper tantrums, the swearing, and anything else bothers the game of golf, he has every right.

If your hero had said something, I have a feeling (I should say know for sure) that you would have a different opinion.
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See, this is where I have a differing opinion and that's the main point of the whole thread.

Sure, Tom has a right to say whatever, I just feel he's wrong for doing so.
 
NikeGolf said:
But, c'mon, he didn't kill anyone.
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I dont think anybody has ever said in this thread that he did anything heinous or crime related. But you have said on numerous occasions that people should not answer questions about it including a HOF golfer. That is flat out absurd. If a true legend feels as though what he has done hurts the game, then he has every right to speak his mind about it. Especially his on course actions.

You said yourself that Tiger is the game of golf. Well if his actions hurt the game then players need to speak out about it.
 
JB said:
I dont think anybody has ever said in this thread that he did anything heinous or crime related. But you have said on numerous occasions that people should not answer questions about it including a HOF golfer. That is flat out absurd. If a true legend feels as though what he has done hurts the game, then he has every right to speak his mind about it. Especially his on course actions.

You said yourself that Tiger is the game of golf. Well if his actions hurt the game then players need to speak out about it.
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Tiger has brought in millions to the game. Brought more popularity to it than it has ever seen.

But, he's hurt the game because a HOF golfer thinks so??????????????

I would call that absurd.

And where and when did I ever say Tiger is the game of golf?
 
NikeGolf said:
Tiger has brought in millions to the game. Brought more popularity to it than it has ever seen.

But, he's hurt the game because a HOF golfer thinks so??????????????

I would call that absurd.

And where and when did I ever say Tiger is the game of golf?
Click to expand...

If you believe that Watson is the only one that thinks so, I think you need to do a little more reading or research. Hundreds have called him out on it.
 
JB said:
You can change my words or leave out as much as you want. The entire point of OJ was the point of public perception. The public perception is that Tiger lied to millions of people. He took in a billion dollars on his image, not just his golf game. Dont kid yourself into thinking that it was only his golf that made him rich and famous. Sure it was big, but his image was even bigger.

But who has the right to tell people they can and cannot have an opinion of his actions? Nobody has to keep their mouth shut about how they feel. You certainly dont with your fan worship of him and neither does a HOF player that has been in his shoes to an extent.

Your basis for most of this argument is that "he is Tiger Woods, so everybody should leave him alone about his course behavior and his personal life". While in some ways its called personal life for a reason, other ways it is how he personally made his billions on his squeaky clean image. That is why people are upset. Dont kid yourself into thinking it is about anything else. People are upset because here is a guy that sold out everything he could to promote things that in the end turned out to be a complete sham.

People have the right to be upset about it. They have the right to voice their opinions. Just like you have the right to keep up the worship and fandom.
Click to expand...


Of all the phrases that could be used to describe Tiger's public image, I for one would never think that "squeaky clean" would be one of them.

I have never seen Tiger portrayed as some kind of "John Boy Walton" or some other such warm and fuzzy "swell guy". Quite the contrary. The image that I've seen of Tiger is one of assured aggressiveness; a competitive persona who is shown to be the ultimate warrior who takes no prisoners, offers no quarter and whose judgment cannot be challenged.

In fact, in some way his affairs actually play into his public image rather than against it and in my opinion he has earned his billions by creating an image more akin to Genghis Khan than Mister Rogers.

Or have I been watching different commercials than everyone else has?


-JP
 
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