Evil Empires of Golf
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
I've heard arguments in favor of "Evil Empire" status for every single one of the major golf companies:
Golf club companies are like life. Keep an open mind and you'll be a lot more likely to find something you like and that works for you. Put blinders on and you'll limit yourself and probably end up less happy.
Acushnet/Titleist: They play a bazillion players to tee up their ball so it will be the "#1 ball in golf" even though there are better balls. They pay certain sites to guarantee good reviews/Their ad money with the golf magazines guarantees good rankings. Their affiliation with Scotty Cameron: he artificially inflates prices for putters and accesories by creating a limited market, and his putters aren't even that good. Plus, he stole all his putter designs from other designers like Karsten Solheim (PING) and T.P. Mills.
TaylorMade: They pay a bazillion players to use their clubs, and drivers specifically. They release too many clubs too quickly, which means as soon as you buy something, the value drops; and merchants lose money because of this.
PING: Their MAP policy makes their clubs more expensive than they should be. They unfairly cut off retailers who violate their MAP policy, even if it was only one time and even if it was an accident. They don't make any forged clubs, so their irons have no feel and they try to claim that cast is as good as forged. Plus, their clubs are ugly.
Nike: They bought their way into golf with Tiger Woods. Their equipment is inferior and the only reason people buy it/use it is because they are a marketing machine.
Callaway: Only makes game improvement clubs. They don't have any real player's clubs. They stole Phil Mickelson from Titleist. They are overpriced. They are just out to make a buck; look at all the garbage accessories they sell.
You can make an argument for/against any company. Every company has some good and some bad points. That's why I don't pay attention to anything except: How well do I hit this club. If I limited myself based on perception or past clubs I've hit, I never would have tried the TM R9's, which I love, because previously I'd never cared for any TM irons I'd demo'd. TaylorMade: They pay a bazillion players to use their clubs, and drivers specifically. They release too many clubs too quickly, which means as soon as you buy something, the value drops; and merchants lose money because of this.
PING: Their MAP policy makes their clubs more expensive than they should be. They unfairly cut off retailers who violate their MAP policy, even if it was only one time and even if it was an accident. They don't make any forged clubs, so their irons have no feel and they try to claim that cast is as good as forged. Plus, their clubs are ugly.
Nike: They bought their way into golf with Tiger Woods. Their equipment is inferior and the only reason people buy it/use it is because they are a marketing machine.
Callaway: Only makes game improvement clubs. They don't have any real player's clubs. They stole Phil Mickelson from Titleist. They are overpriced. They are just out to make a buck; look at all the garbage accessories they sell.
Golf club companies are like life. Keep an open mind and you'll be a lot more likely to find something you like and that works for you. Put blinders on and you'll limit yourself and probably end up less happy.
calebt17
New member
I'm not a Callaway fan. I tried the golf balls and some of their equipment. It wasn't a fit. Callaway really doesn't interest me, it's just a preference.
olmanracer
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Taylormade burner driver, 5-metal, 7-metal
Adams strong 3 hybrid
Callaway Diablo irons
Cleveland 54/60 wedges
Ping G2 putter
Whatever works for me, no brand loyalty.
Adams strong 3 hybrid
Callaway Diablo irons
Cleveland 54/60 wedges
Ping G2 putter
Whatever works for me, no brand loyalty.
BigLeftyinAZ
Well-known member
That's funny.
We've had this type of thread last year and I'll keep to myself on this one
calebt17
New member
Hahaha, check that. I'm a fan of their putters, says the man with an Odyssey putter. Man, what a brain fart that was.
provisional
Could Care Less
I suppose if I believed in an "Evil Empire" for golf it would have to be all the golf club, and ball manufacturers in general. Think about it. With all the technology advancements in golf clubs, and balls, none of the manufacturers have got it right yet. In other words their marketing techniques, and values. How come no manufacturer has come up with the ultimate club, and/or ball that guarantees distance, and accuracy? Even though in a round about way they say they can, in reality they can't. Why can't they? Because there are tens of millions of different golfers out there, swinging the clubs which hits the balls tens of millions different ways. .. 
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
I suppose if I believed in an "Evil Empire" for golf it would have to be all the golf club, and ball manufacturers in general. Think about it. With all the technology advancements in golf clubs, and balls, none of the manufacturers have got it right yet. In other words their marketing techniques, and values. How come no manufacturer has come up with the ultimate club, and/or ball that guarantees distance, and accuracy? Even though in a round about way they say they can, in reality they can't. Why can't they? Because there are tens of millions of different golfers out there, swinging the clubs which hits the balls tens of millions different ways. ..
Hmmm, interesting hypotheses Mr. P.
In response, might I postulate that, rather than an "Evil Empire" consisting of a manufacturing company, perhaps what we are looking at is the USGA and R&A forming an "Axis of Evil" imposing manufacturing restrictions which prevent the true mastery of the game.
- Admin
- #9
I suppose if I believed in an "Evil Empire" for golf it would have to be all the golf club, and ball manufacturers in general. Think about it. With all the technology advancements in golf clubs, and balls, none of the manufacturers have got it right yet. In other words their marketing techniques, and values. How come no manufacturer has come up with the ultimate club, and/or ball that guarantees distance, and accuracy? Even though in a round about way they say they can, in reality they can't. Why can't they? Because there are tens of millions of different golfers out there, swinging the clubs which hits the balls tens of millions different ways. ..
That is no different than any other company in any other industry.
As for guarantees, Tour Edge Exotics guarantees more distance with their new drivers or your money back.
The evil empire for anything as it has been said is the company that is one of the largest, puts it in your face, and of course has the ego about them. Its not about a company that one dislikes. That is something different. I always find the argument for Nike having "bought their way on tour" kind of funny. Because that is exactly what Titleist has done.
C-Tech
New member
I would not want the job of designing a club to improve the game of most golfers. Like Prov said, everyone is different with very different needs to maximize their swings. Design a club to cure one problem and it creates another for the next golfer. I think each manufacturer has carved out its niche in the market pretty well. TM certainly seems to have a stranglehold on driver sales but fights with many others for the GI iron market. It appears to me that Mizuno has staked out a good portion of the players iron market and I don't really see a strong competitor for that market segment.
Of course, these are my musings and could probably be laid bare by someone with actual statistics. However, my opinion as a golfer who views this as a semi-interested observer has some merit because it is mostly perception that drives public opinion.
Of course, these are my musings and could probably be laid bare by someone with actual statistics. However, my opinion as a golfer who views this as a semi-interested observer has some merit because it is mostly perception that drives public opinion.
- Admin
- #11
CT,
You are right about the public perception. Ironically TM has both the number one selling iron and the number one selling driver right now.
Your point brings up something else as well. Many get mad at companies like Mizuno, TM, Adams, etc... for bringing so many sets of irons and so many drivers out each year. While money is behind it all, I think there is more to it than that. I think part of it is that they are really trying to go after the "we have clubs for every single kind of player" mentality.
You are right about the public perception. Ironically TM has both the number one selling iron and the number one selling driver right now.
Your point brings up something else as well. Many get mad at companies like Mizuno, TM, Adams, etc... for bringing so many sets of irons and so many drivers out each year. While money is behind it all, I think there is more to it than that. I think part of it is that they are really trying to go after the "we have clubs for every single kind of player" mentality.
C-Tech
New member
Not me, I like choices. Not every club out there fits my swing. I am a bit of an equipment junkie anyway, so I like having all these options. I believe I have been able to improve my game with equipment over the 10 years I have played. I have also made some terrible mistakes, like the Burner Draw that I renamed the Burner Snap Hook, and the Fat Shaft irons. Sometimes you gotta kiss some frogs to find a princess.
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- #13
Im with you 100%.
Diane
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So people get mad at the companies for trying to please everyone and for not pleasing everyone. I find it interesting that the golf equipment companies are labeled the "Evil Empire", yet people don't have such strong feelings about the drug companies when their prescription medications don't work. What is it about golf that elicits such strong emotions?
TC
Keg Thrower
fantastic question. kinda what i was thinking but there's no way it would've come out like that.
I don't understand why a heavy dose of marketing your brand or advertising your product makes you "evil". I think that any golf related company wishes they had the ad budget of some of the above mentioned companies. It's just how this game is played.
How do some of you guys feel about companies that sponsor golf tournaments?
Hanks
On the Fringe
Great post Harry but I'm going to plead ignorance on one thing.....what is MAP policy?
- Admin
- #17
I dont want to get this too off topic, but I would say check the nightly news. Millions are mad at the drug companies for this very thing, however this is a golf forum so I think people are venting frustrating at the companies discussed.
People get made at TM for a different reason. In my opinion it is not about the amount of clubs they put out. They do put out a lot, but not a ton more over a 2 year period than a few others. Its the release period that angers more in my opinion.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
Re: Evil Empires of Golf
Companies set a minimum price forwhich a product can be sold. The arguments are that it protects smaller shops from being undercut by mega stores and Internet retailers, and puts a premium on service and fitting. PING has been very agressive at enforcing their MAP policy. But the retailers who always make news when they get their account closed are the smaller stores, like the store that was giving discounts to military personelle. Of course, what fails to get mentioned is the PING must enforce all violations or the policy can be attacked as discriminatory and price setting.
Minimum Advertised Price.thanks1974 said:
Companies set a minimum price forwhich a product can be sold. The arguments are that it protects smaller shops from being undercut by mega stores and Internet retailers, and puts a premium on service and fitting. PING has been very agressive at enforcing their MAP policy. But the retailers who always make news when they get their account closed are the smaller stores, like the store that was giving discounts to military personelle. Of course, what fails to get mentioned is the PING must enforce all violations or the policy can be attacked as discriminatory and price setting.
Hanks
On the Fringe
Excellent, thank you for the knowledge Harry!
They are all in the business for one reason: to make money. It's easy to find fault with every OEM. This business isn't a kumbaya love fest. It's about $$$$. Good, bad, or indifferent that's the way it is.
- Thread starter
- #21
The thing with MAP pricing is this. A company can not force Mr. Delear to sell at a certain price. This was settled in court not to long ago. The company can decide to not ship to Mr. Delaer after hearing of not adhering to their suggested price.
I understand why companies do this becuase it helps keep percieved value of their product up. You don't get dealers selling for 10% over their cost on the internet just to sell masses quantities.
If Mr. Dealer was smarter he would have included a free non ping putter, shoes or anything else with percieved value instead of lowering his price on the irons set.
Back on subject, I know Titelist is paying for placement but they have been around the game for a very long time. I remember when I used to get excited when I would find a balata ball becuase it was so much softer to hit than my cheap Top Flights I was playing back then. I am starting to let my guard down on Nike
I understand why companies do this becuase it helps keep percieved value of their product up. You don't get dealers selling for 10% over their cost on the internet just to sell masses quantities.
If Mr. Dealer was smarter he would have included a free non ping putter, shoes or anything else with percieved value instead of lowering his price on the irons set.
Back on subject, I know Titelist is paying for placement but they have been around the game for a very long time. I remember when I used to get excited when I would find a balata ball becuase it was so much softer to hit than my cheap Top Flights I was playing back then. I am starting to let my guard down on Nike
ken419
Return of the Hack
Does Callaway have a MAP policy, or is the manager at Golf HQ just FOS?
Drove past the store about a month ago and their electronic sign was advertising Big Bertha Diablo balls 2 for $30. I couldn't pass that deal up so I went into the store, and when I found the balls there was a sign that they were 2 for $39.99. I explained to the manager about the sign and he refused to sell them to me at 2 for $30. I had explained to him that since that price was advertised, even in error, he was obligated to sell at that price, and he still refused, claiming "Callaway won't allow it". I took a picture of the inside sign intending to file a complaint with the BBB, and before I could get a picture of the outside sign, he RAN into the office in the back and turned off the sign.
Drove past the store about a month ago and their electronic sign was advertising Big Bertha Diablo balls 2 for $30. I couldn't pass that deal up so I went into the store, and when I found the balls there was a sign that they were 2 for $39.99. I explained to the manager about the sign and he refused to sell them to me at 2 for $30. I had explained to him that since that price was advertised, even in error, he was obligated to sell at that price, and he still refused, claiming "Callaway won't allow it". I took a picture of the inside sign intending to file a complaint with the BBB, and before I could get a picture of the outside sign, he RAN into the office in the back and turned off the sign.
- Admin
- #23
Every company has MAP and some are stricter about it than others. The reason the Diablo balls are cheaper right now is that they are making changes to the ball line.
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Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
They aren't allowed to do that either. For awhile (not sure if this is still true), internet merchants couldn't even offer free shipping on PING products. That's why (one of the reasons anyway) they do cheap flat rate shipping.
Harry Longshanks
ILikeBigPutts&ICannotLie
First, I will say that sucks. Most sales people will honor a misadvertised price even if you don't ask them too.
But the main reason I wanted to comment is that I find the visual of the guy running to change the sign hilarious.
Also, if he knows that "Callaway won't allow it" then why did he put the signs up? Shady.