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GI or Players Irons and Your Swing?

SuperStroke
While I can see that a lot of people have bought into the hype that game improvement irons are going to make everyone Tiger Woods, the facts just do not bear that out. I have yet to see any substantive information that proves the "average" golfer has enjoyed any marked improvement in his scoring as a result of using game improvement irons. I agree that while launching higher, being able to miss the sweet spot and still get distance, and combatting a slice may well be true, it obviously has not translated into improved scoring.

Every reasonable study I have seen says the game is not won off the tee or with irons,but with wedges and putters. Both of those clubs have NO cavity back or offset. While the club manufacturers would love you to believe you can see huge improvements by using their clubs, its in the short game, not in iron play. Hybrids may make you feel better about your mid-range shots, but scoring is still done inside 100 yards.
 
What studies do you want to see? While scoring may be similar because of bad short games, the game can certainly be more enjoyable because of better ball striking!!!

I would like to see any study showing that blades are just as easy to hit than that of GI irons. Because any average golfer can go to a launch monitor and line up the two and prove that is not the case.

Your point could make it even closer. Perhaps the average player should not be using wedges without cavity backs and they would be scoring even better. Perhaps if they used GI irons only there short game scores would improve.
 
CT,
Why do you believe that most touring professionals have switched from blades to cavity back irons?
 
Wow, this one took an interesting turn!

I'll weigh in on my personal experience. I picked up the game in the summer of 1989 between my sophomore & junior years in HS. First set of clubs, like many, was a set of hand-me-down blades from my father. They were great when you hit them well, and horrid when you didn't.

The next summer I played a lot of golf with a set of perimeter weighted irons while working as a groundkeeper at a local 9-hole. The irons were much easier to hit than the blades I'd been used to, and mishits were much more forgiving. I played with similar sets through the summer of 2002 when I stopped playing after moving south.

This year, I picked up the game again back in January. Bought my current set of clubs, which I believe are considered GI irons. Even comparing them to the irons I used when I stopped playing in 2002 (original King Cobra knockoffs) there was a definite difference in forgiveness, and better distance.

Now, I'll agree that the wedges and putter is where the "scoring" is at. But to try and say that having a set of irons that allow more forgiveness, a bigger sweetspot, and better distance than clubs from even 7 years ago won't improve your game makes me wonder about a person's ability to understand basic logic. Being able to use a club that makes your approach shot more accurate than they were 10 years ago is obviously going to lead to the improvement of a person's game.

If the person can't hit a wedge or putt, it's all moot - but that wasn't the original argument here. And honestly, most golfers probably should NOT be using the popular blade-style wedges for the same reasons that the GI irons are a better club for them compared to a blade-style iron.
 
Ok. Let's say for the sake of argument that you hit the ball higher and longer with GI irons. Essentially what that does is give you 8 iron distance with a 9 iron. No one has proven to me that this translates directly into better scoring. Most amateurs miss the green short regardless of what type of club they are playing. So that puts you just off the green in regulation. Now you still have to get the ball close with the next shot and make a putt to save par. The GI iron may have put you 5 yards short of the green instead of 15, but you still have to get the ball in the hole in two more strokes to save par and improve your game.

My contention is still that whether you skull the ball close to the green or hit a beautiful towering iron close to the green your total score for that hole is likely to remain the same. I don't deny, nor have I during this discussion, that players can get more forgiveness from GI irons, I just disagree that this is going to translate into better scores.

As to hybrids, a lot of people can hit them further and straighter than their long irons. Again, this does not necessarily translate into better scoring. Again, you can skull a 3 iron 180 yards or hit a hybrid 210 and all you have done is put yourself 30 yards closer to the green. If you cannot hit a wedge approach that finds the green from either of those positions, you have not improved your scoring. Again, it still takes stellar wedge play and good putting to improve scoring.

You cannot buy a game. New drivers won't do it, hybrids won't do it, nor will GI irons. What you can buy is misses that look prettier...not more effective, just prettier.
 
With your argument though CT, people not scoring better has nothing to do with their irons. In fact you say yourself that the GI irons are easier to hit, so if that is the case, shouldnt your issue be with wedges NOT being forgiving enough or putters not being forgiving enough? The GI irons do exactly what they are supposed to, make it easier for players to miss and still get results.

If they choose the wrong club, that is not the clubmakers fault and maybe I misinterpretted it, but it seems to imply in your earlier post that you believed that GI irons are not easier to hit than blades and that the only people and tests saying otherwise are equipment companies.
 
I don't have a problem with GI irons nor do I believe that they aren't easier to hit or that they're more forgiving. But I see blades or more generally "traditional" clubs as things that provide a tactile and emotional input that, for me, GI clubs simply don't offer.

I actually LIKE the idea that blades are harder to master or that an off-center hit will send a shock through my hands and I believe that there is a bigger ego-boost associated with striking a perfect shot with blades than could ever be possible from GI clubs.

I think of it in the same way that I regard using a hammer as opposed to a pneumatic nailer; the nailer certainly makes a job quicker and easier (and I use them quite a bit for just that reason), but there's something very satisfying about driving a nail home with a hammer that an air gun simply cannot offer.

It's like that with blades too.


-JP
 
JB said:
I have tried close to 40 different iron sets this year and can only offer my opinion and that of our testers with your questions, but hopefully it will help.

1. Divot size will usually be attributed to your swing and not sole size. Some show problems with larger soles and clean contact. It has never been an issue for me personally and did not seem to be one to any of the people that have tested the irons with us this year.

2. While some cast clubs cannot be bent much, almost every set can be ordered to your specific specs with no problem at all.

3. Longer distances are attributed to a lot of things. Stronger lofts, longer shafts, and better weighting. Do not discount the technology part of this. It is not ONLY the stronger loft that makes more distance.

GI clubs work for so many reasons and in speaking with people in all parts of the industry they all unanimously feel the same way about amateur golfers and their equipmnent. Their opinion is clearly not to sell clubs, because most of the equipment they are trying to get people away from are more expensive than their GI counterparts. I will not get into the debate of players vs GI here, because I know that is not your goal.

In many cases that is the very thing. What is the goal. Some talk about thick topline, etc... and how they cannot play it because of look. That is personal and totally up to them. If your goal is to hit it higher and straighter, GI irons simply do that easier than any other.

Try a bunch and see what works out best. We have quite a few more reviews coming up in the next couple of weeks on GI irons and have so many different testers trying them out. Low and high handicaps in our testing all agree on a couple of things. The new GI irons can be extremely workable and most players that can move the ball around in a players club can also do so in the GI iron. They are also far more forgiving and with the weighting of the newest technologies out there, offer far more overall playability.

As for blades, there is a reason that almost every single tour player (more than 75% at years end) do not play them anymore. They have switched to a players cavity for a different weighting and more forgiveness. Not my opinion, simply stating facts.

Most amateurs would score better (assuming that is their goal) with a more forigivng club and one that is fitted for their swing. The term feel is so overused on internet golf forums because as was stated by so many "experts", most do not really know what they are feeling and more is caused from the ball and the shaft than the club head. Feel can mean soft, it can mean, feedback, and it can mean other things. Most display "feel" because they think they are supposed to.

Again, we will not let your thread with legitimate questions get turned into a GI vs Players or a cast vs forged thread. Its not necessary and I hope a few can answer your questions with reasonable knowledge of things they have tried rather than speculation or marketing. THe answers I have given are merely my opinion on the subject and what has been shown to us by our testers over the course of the last year.
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I refer to your original post where you stated (see bold print) that most amateurs would "score better" with GI irons. I simply stated that this may not be true. They may hit prettier shots, but scoring is all about getting the ball in the hole in fewer strokes and my contention is that GI irons have minimal effect on that.

In my experience, most amateurs hit few greens in regulation no matter what kind of iron they hit. This leads to the necessity to chip and pitch the ball around the greens and do so well enough to turn three potential strokes into two. Again, nothing about doing that has to do with irons, GI or blades.

If you are talking about something esoteric like the beauty of a soaring iron shot instead of a skull, the the GI iron may give an amateur a few more of those, but again beauty does not lead to scoring, which is what I said to begin with.

That is why I said that GI irons have had little effect on scoring. Irons are not scoring clubs for amateurs, wedges and putters are.
 
What I am speaking of is scoring better. Most amateurs play the wrong clubs and clubs not fitted for them. They also play non-GI wedges for their short game. I am going back to your original post in which maybe I am taking it the wrong way, but the way it seems to be worded is that you did not believe that GI irons were easier to hit. Then came back and said that they did offer more forgiveness.

If cavity backs were not easier to hit for people and offered more playability, why did almost every professional switch to them? WHy has the hybrid become popular?

Technology has made this game easier. Handicaps have not gone down, but to think that clubs did not get any easier to hit is crazy.

If that is the case every player would be playing persimmon woods and blades. Yet they are not because there are easier options out there. The handicap has not changed since the 20s. Does that mean graphite shafts are not better in drivers for most? Why bother since the scores have not come down?
 
Not to belabor the obvious, but to me golf is all about scoring and whatever clubs will help you do that is what you should play. One isn't "better" than another, it's what suits your game and swing. The scorecard doesn't care. :smile-big:

I play ultra game improvement irons, which is "beyond" super game improvement irons. :bulgy-eyes:
 
DefCon1 said:
Not to belabor the obvious, but to me golf is all about scoring and whatever clubs will help you do that is what you should play. One isn't "better" than another, it's what suits your game and swing. The scorecard doesn't care. :smile-big:

I play ultra game improvement irons, which is "beyond" super game improvement irons. :bulgy-eyes:
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I'm curious.

What's beyond "Super Game Improvement"...having someone walk the ball out into the fairway for you, perhaps?

(I'm kidding)

If it lets you get your freak on, use whatever you're happy with. :thumb:


-JP
 
JB said:
What I am speaking of is scoring better. Most amateurs play the wrong clubs and clubs not fitted for them. They also play non-GI wedges for their short game. I am going back to your original post in which maybe I am taking it the wrong way, but the way it seems to be worded is that you did not believe that GI irons were easier to hit. Then came back and said that they did offer more forgiveness.

If cavity backs were not easier to hit for people and offered more playability, why did almost every professional switch to them? WHy has the hybrid become popular?

Technology has made this game easier. Handicaps have not gone down, but to think that clubs did not get any easier to hit is crazy.

If that is the case every player would be playing persimmon woods and blades. Yet they are not because there are easier options out there. The handicap has not changed since the 20s. Does that mean graphite shafts are not better in drivers for most? Why bother since the scores have not come down?
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I think most professionals switched to them because most club companies pay them to play their clubs and many companies don't even make a blade anymore. The popularity of the hybrid is a whole other subject. I can only go by my experience, but none of my playing partners who use hybrids hit more greens in regulation with them than the ones who use long irons. Professionals may be able to use these clubs to lower their scores because they can hit them onto the green with more accuracy. Again, in my experience, amateurs still miss the green and still have to have good short games to take any advantage of the hybrid or GI iron.

Easier to hit does not translate into scoring. If it did, then all these professionals who switched to them would have lowered the average score on the tours substantially over the years. As far as I can see, the only thing that had a true effect on scoring was the bigger driver and the improved ball that shortened the course. The response has been to lengthen the courses.
If the GI iron had shown a huge gain in accuracy and scoring, we would have seen new courses designed with smaller and smaller greens. Greens have actually gotten bigger, so that doesn't hold water.

As far as the reason to "bother"...equipment makers make fantastic claims that their new version of club will lower your handicap, make you prettier, and leave you breathless with their improved distance. We all buy into it and it keeps the economic engine fired up.

Oh, and about persimmon woods, I still have a set in my office and every now and then I take them to the range. Surprisingly enough, in the face of technology claims to the contrary, they will still hit the newer golf balls almost as far as the new drivers. My persimmons have steel shafts and small heads, but if you swing them well, they still respond.
 
Perhaps handicaps have remained steady because the courses are longer and the greens are bigger (more putts when you get on the greens from a non chip because you're so much further from the hole)?
 
SO you do believe that GI irons are not easier to hit than blades? That is what I thought you said originally, but then you said later on that they are more forgiving. While scores have not gone down on the GHIN, you will find more people playing each and every week and that is because the game is more tolerable to the masses because the equipment is more forgiving and easy to hit.

Every single test by an outside lab will show you that a GI iron is far more forgiving for players. A cavity back is more forgiving than a blade. Whether that is better for every golfer is not the question, but the offset of a GI iron alone will make it easier to hit for amateurs.

If you think that the only reason that tour players are playing cavity backs is because the club companies are making them, you are vastly mistaken and down right wrong. With the exception of TM (who still have a blade in their lineup despite not in production), just about every single club company is still making a blade in some fashion. Yet most players are going away from that and you believe it is because the companies are making them? As for the tour players lowering scores, they have overall in a way. More players are playing at a certain high level than ever before. And the courses are playing longer and harder than ever before.

But this game is supposed to be about fun for amateurs and more are playing each year and that has to do with the game being less hard. I dont know what other irons you have hit this year, but someone like me that learned to play on blades and always played them because "it was cool", I can tell you that it is NOT EVEN CLOSE with the amount of forgiveness that many of the newer clubs can give you compared to that of just a decade ago.

As for the hybrids, you cannot possibly believe that the long irons are just as easy for amateurs to hit than these. They have covered it in every single testing, magazine, and everything else. They fly longer, land softer, and fly higher and that is the reason for their popularity. They were picked up by consumers long before the players on tour because they HELPED. Not because they saw them on TV.
 
Smallville said:
Perhaps handicaps have remained steady because the courses are longer and the greens are bigger (more putts when you get on the greens from a non chip because you're so much further from the hole)?
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Ding Ding DIng, we have a winner. This and the overall fact that most people have bad short games. WHich has NOTHING to do with iron ball striking.
 
JB said:
Ding Ding DIng, we have a winner. This and the overall fact that most people have bad short games. WHich has NOTHING to do with iron ball striking.
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I think you finally got the point. You are absolutely right.... iron play has almost nothing to do with scoring because all the GI irons in the world will not make amateurs hit more greens in regulation.

I don't personally care if people want to play with a baseball bat and a pool cue. I play what I play because I like them and whatever others want to play is up to them. But to believe that GI irons have brought about some quantum leap forward in scoring is just wrong headed. The equipment companies would love for people to believe that, but it is just not born out by the facts.

The easier to hit argument can be made. I will concede that they are easier to get in the air and, if you are a natural slicer, they will help straighten out your ball flight, but they will not make a 25 handicap into a 15. They probably won't make a 25 a 20 either.
 
C-Tech said:
The easier to hit argument can be made. I will concede that they are easier to get in the air and, if you are a natural slicer, they will help straighten out your ball flight, but they will not make a 25 handicap into a 15. They probably won't make a 25 a 20 either.
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You are probably right, but that can be more because of using blade wedges or putting.

However there is no argument. They are easier to hit and it has been proven by science on monitors over and over again. Not by club companies by individuals getting fitted for irons. Im still just slightly baffled that you can think a blade iron is as easy to hit than a GI iron. They are larger in headsize and you yourself said that made a difference in drivers. They are offset which helps natural slicers (more than half the amateur golfers playing struggle with that), and there are a host of other reasons.

Lower CG on most to help ball flight
Perimeter weight to help with heel and toe shots
And of course the two reasons already mentioned

Please give me an argument against them from the high handicappers you listed (15,20, and 25). What argument can possibly be made to not use them?

Feel? Please, that is crazy for most high handicappers.
Workability? Really? That one is even more crazy for most amateurs.

Im not sure there is a single argument that can be made for a high handicapped amateur playing them, so I am curious if you have one?

Someone could say "if you plan to be a serious player sometime, it could help with training", but a high handicapper has to look to have fun and straighten swing first. Millions was spent developing clubs that more people could play with and in turn pros realized it helped their game as well. There is no right club for everybody, however a GI iron is flat out easier to hit straight than that of a blade for a high handicapped player.
 
C-Tech said:
The easier to hit argument can be made. I will concede that they are easier to get in the air and, if you are a natural slicer, they will help straighten out your ball flight, but they will not make a 25 handicap into a 15. They probably won't make a 25 a 20 either.
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Being I've never played GI iron's it's simply not possible for me to make a statement about lowering my score with them, however If and when I do buy new iron's I'd sure be in a sweet position to answer this question.

At 50 years young, my game should be ready to start moving the wrong direction. My distance and accuracy surely shouldn't get better, nor my score.

But, what if it did after I bought these clubs? Would that be a fair test?
 
Duey, as much as I'd love to hear your report on this, a one person sampling wouldn't mean much! Although you'd know if they help or hurt you! And if you do get some GI irons, please report back.
 
It is always a good debating technique to discount your opponents potential argument before he has a chance to make it...

ie: the comments about workability and feel.

I do think the argument could be made for the high handicapper that if he wants to truly improve his game, he needs to be able to make a swing with a blade iron that will produce an acceptable ball flight. Otherwise, why not just get rid of the clubs and use a device that will dial in the yardage and throw the ball where you want? I think it is valuable to learn to "work" the ball and I believe it is worthwhile to learn what feedback can tell you about your swing.

Most amateurs are not interested in this and I get that. They just want to go out, have a few beers with their buds, and knock the ball around. If that is their aim, GI irons are probably their best bet. If they want to seriously improve, they will spend some time practicing from 100 yards and in, and they may also want to learn to hit blades so they can improve their swings without artificial aids.
 
Smallville said:
Duey, as much as I'd love to hear your report on this, a one person sampling wouldn't mean much! Although you'd know if they help or hurt you! And if you do get some GI irons, please report back.
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They have done samplings of hundreds of people smallie. How many people are on the PGA Tour? Why are more than 70% of them not playing blades? Most want the added forgiveness that a cavity backs offer and it cannot be disputed. Hundreds of studies have been done on it and it always shows the same thing. More forgiveness is there in a cavity back than a blade.

This does not mean people should stop playing blades if they want to. Heck, they definitely should if they like them and it works for their game. But to say that a GI iron is not an easier club to hit than a blade is just FLAT OUT FALSE.
 
I'm sure your right Smally and still not sure if GI is the way I'm going to go, but it does intrigue me a little after the diatribe of the last 14 or so posts to this topic, lol.
 
C-Tech said:
I do think the argument could be made for the high handicapper that if he wants to truly improve his game, he needs to be able to make a swing with a blade iron that will produce an acceptable ball flight.
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you can find any ball flight you need with a cavity back iron by changing shafts.
 
I was actually making a humorous (or try to be humorous) reply to duey's "Would that be a fair test" question. :D
 
JB said:
you can find any ball flight you need with a cavity back iron by changing shafts.
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Why not just hire someone to hit the ball for you if it is all about the equipment and nothing about acquiring any skill.
 
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